How to convince a religious girl...

[Pharaoh]

Hey guys!
I have a problem with my girlfriend. We're together for about half a year and we already had sex. We're living apart, so it happens we couldn't see each other for a couple of months. I'm about to see her again and now she told me that she considers pre-marital sex as wrong and doesn't want us to do it anymore...
Listen, I really love this girl so I kind of promised to keep my hands off her. But I consider sex a very important part of every relationship and I think it's totally stupid to suppress it.
It happens that I'm an atheist while she's christian. Can you guys give me some arguments to convince her that pre-marital sex isn't a sin???

[Shithead]

she's ignorrant. tell her to think for herself rather than have a book tell her what to do.


(this doesn't mean im baggin religion or god or etc blar blar)

hold on, now im gonna go on a rant.

if a bible tells us what to do, and a science book tells us what to think, then there is absolutly nothing for us to achieve in our life.


so, think for yourself.

[Stuff_]

Respect her morals and values. It's the best thing you can do for her. It's not all about sex. There's more to life. :)

It's not about a book, it's about her morals and her values. She is not ignorant, actually she is making an intelligent decision.

[Bigd5903]

Shit I've been in the exact same situation. The relationship lasted a year longer but slowly declined after she had her religious moment. Not only was there no sex, but no touching, seeing each other naked, even making out kind of disappeared after a while. I really did love her too but I couldn't handle what seemed like just being friends who kissed occasionally. Then she got upset when I broke up with her even tho she knew she was distancing herself from me. AHHHHHH women... We also had different views on religion. She was Christian and I could care less because I don't believe in the supernatural so we argued about that a lot.

[derringer57]

if a bible tells us what to do, and a science book tells us what to think, then there is absolutly nothing for us to achieve in our life.


so, think for yourself. Science tells us the way things are (gravity etc). Go jump off a building c'mon! Don't let science tell you what to think, gravity is a farce!

Honestly. The Bible tells you the right/moral way to live, science tells you the way the universe and the things inside it are, but you always have opinion.

[Pharaoh]

thanx guys.
thing is I'll visit her for some weeks and of course we'll share a bed... Can you imagine how hard that'll be???
I'm afraid that the frustration will make us have fights and stuff.
thing is if I tell her that a relationship without sex doesn't make sense to me (call it a friendship then), she'll be thinking I'm only out for sex...
Aren't there any christians out there who can give me some bible quotes or whatever? <:(

[Cybershot]

...now she told me that she considers pre-marital sex as wrong and doesn't want us to do it anymore...

It seems like if you guys were having sex before, then apart, then not having sex now, something must have convinced her that what she was doing was wrong. Was she talking to someone about the sex? Also how frequently were you having sex before and did she seem comfortable with it?

[Pharaoh]

It seems like if you guys were having sex before, then apart, then not having sex now, something must have convinced her that what she was doing was wrong. Was she talking to someone about the sex? Also how frequently were you having sex before and did she seem comfortable with it?

well, I know she joined a new bible group or whatever. so it might be that she changed her mind due to discussions with them. Anyway, I hope I can change her mind when we finally meet. Maybe the passion will overcome her... rofl
We had sex frequently, but sometimes she told me that she felt guilty.

[GhosT_DoGG]

She sounds kinda brainwashed by Jehovas witnesses.
Get her a some book that is about the religion sex and she become obsessed with that instead. :D

[Jason1]

Do anal with her. Seriously. When Taylor Rain was younger and still a virgin she was afraid to have sex cause she thought it would be wrong, I think her parents were religious, so her boyfriend "taught" her that anal sex wasn't losing her virginity and they did it.

[Pharaoh]

Do anal with her. Seriously. When Taylor Rain was younger and still a virgin she was afraid to have sex cause she thought it would be wrong, I think her parents were religious, so her boyfriend "taught" her that anal sex wasn't losing her virginity and they did it.

LOL she ain't a porn star and she's not a virgin anymore. but it might become my last resort...

[AlloyCG]

This happened to my girlfriend and I. Do you love her? I did. I said ok, as hard as it's going to be for me I'm willing to wait for you. Whoever said that you need to respect her is absolutely right. Don't try to change her mind overtly.

Now, with that being said - you CAN break her of this without looking like you are trying to. You know her better than anyone. Appeal to what turns her on without making it look like you are begging for sex. Touch her as sexually and sensualy as possibly without going for the tits or between the legs. Sure, get close. Tell her all the things she does that turn you on. She DOES want to turn you on, whether or not she thinks she wants to have sex with you. Be sweet, kind, understanding, and sexy as fuck. Don't let her see you get discouraged if it doesn't work automatically. The worst thing you can do is look desperate and like you are trying to beg for it.

[AlloyCG]

It happens that I'm an atheist while she's christian. Can you guys give me some arguments to convince her that pre-marital sex isn't a sin???

And guy, if I didn't make it crystal clear DO NOT TRY TO CONVINCE HER OTHERWISE. Do not.

[hopful]

You gotta know what you wan't in life. I think you should sit down, think about it and then decide.

[9cyclops9]

I'm not going to offer my religious views, if you're interested in that you can read other threads I've posted (don't want to start any flaming or anything :D).

But, one thing to consider is this: if you convince her to have sex with you, after the fact she will feel like you made her compromise her beliefs. That isn't a good position to be in. Since she is taking such a stand about this issue (which is a very difficult thing to do, especially if it's completely contrary to what she formerly believed), it's obviously very important to her, and what you need to do is support her 100%. Trying to change her morals isn't a good position to put yourself in, because it will eventually make her resent you (coming from someone who has been in her shoes).

[jakb]

There are alot of things to think about when this situation comes up.

1) You cant change a person if they truly believe in something.

2) Even if you do change them, that means that they truly didnt believe in what they thought they did. Unfortunately in this situation it will make you out to be the bad guy and she wont feel respected and then not respect you.
Lack of respect equals end of relationship.

3) Is it possible she might be using this to push you away? She must know of your atheist views, therefore using religion ideas to distance herself from you.

All of these are things to think about. Alot of times religious beliefs push people apart, instead of pulling people together. It is unfotunate but like mentioned before dont try to change her views. If you love her you have only a couple of options left.

1 Let this pass. As fast as it came it may leave just as fast.
2 Wait by her side until you get married.
3 Or end the relationship.

Good luck man...

[Pharaoh]

wow!
thanx a lot for all of your advise! I'm stunned how much you guys are trying to help me.

First of all, I love this girl like crazy. That's the reason why I'm together with her even though we hardly see each other. I think she's the right one, so I wouldn't leave her for such a reason.
what is different from the situation some of you have been in: we already had sex! so it will be incredibly hard to stay cool. I know I'll get frustrated. I just have to think of the smell of her punani and I get crazy... :O

anyway, this is a PE-forum as well: I started PE in the meantime and I'm just dying to find out if she'll realize my gains... guess y'all are feeling me...




3) Is it possible she might be using this to push you away? She must know of your atheist views, therefore using religion ideas to distance herself from you.

no way, she's just told me that I'm the perfect man for her.



If you love her you have only a couple of options left.

1 Let this pass. As fast as it came it may leave just as fast.
2 Wait by her side until you get married.
3 Or end the relationship.

Good luck man...

Let's say no 2 then :)

[Pharaoh]

Now, with that being said - you CAN break her of this without looking like you are trying to. You know her better than anyone. Appeal to what turns her on without making it look like you are begging for sex. Touch her as sexually and sensualy as possibly without going for the tits or between the legs. Sure, get close. Tell her all the things she does that turn you on. She DOES want to turn you on, whether or not she thinks she wants to have sex with you. Be sweet, kind, understanding, and sexy as fuck. Don't let her see you get discouraged if it doesn't work automatically. The worst thing you can do is look desperate and like you are trying to beg for it.

Alright, I agree it won't make sense to change her mind. But I'll definately try this out... :cool:

[loco]

bud if she is everything you say she is to you, keep this in mind. Good things come to those who wait. It is a fact bro 90% of all the christian and non-religious women I have met that have waited till after marriage are usually sex-aholics. plus if you press the issue you will be pushing her away. And think if getting some booty is worth losing this girl you say you love. weigh it carefully because if you press it, and she is serious about her position you will lose her.

[Shithead]

Respect her morals and values. It's the best thing you can do for her. It's not all about sex. There's more to life. :)

It's not about a book, it's about her morals and her values. She is not ignorant, actually she is making an intelligent decision.

it's not her morals, its the bible's morals.

[Stuff_]

it's not her morals, its the bible's morals.
They're my morals, and I'm not Christian. So they can be her morals as well. Not everything is a nicely packaged stereotype. ;)

[9cyclops9]

I agree. And even though she gets her moral standard from the Bible doesn't mean that she is forced to accept those morals. She chose to subscribe to that moral code, so yes, they are her morals, and not just the Bible's.

[kong1971]

Actually, if you want to be Old Testament Biblical, you are already married. As soon as a man has sex with a woman, they are considered married in God's eyes. All you two are really waiting on is the paperwork to go through! ;)

Being a Christian man, I have to confess that I had pre-marital sex with my wife. She wanted it and I wanted it. I loved her very much and felt married to her when I made love to her. It was the first time I really MEANT it, even though I was still pretty crazy back then.

My wife came from a very religious background. Her parents had a cow when they found out we were living together. I did not come from a religious background. I was extremely wild in my youth and came to my religious beliefs very late. I am still EXTREMELY liberal. I think my wife considers me her heathen husband most of the time.

I think you should respect her moral stand on this issue and cherish her for it. At least you know she's not out fucking some other guy on the sly. Although my wife drives me crazy sometimes with her more conservative religious views, I can at least trust her to have respect for our marriage and for me. That's more than I can say for some other women I have known.

[WNT2MORE]

Hey guys!
I have a problem with my girlfriend. We're together for about half a year and we already had sex. We're living apart, so it happens we couldn't see each other for a couple of months. I'm about to see her again and now she told me that she considers pre-marital sex as wrong and doesn't want us to do it anymore...
Listen, I really love this girl so I kind of promised to keep my hands off her. But I consider sex a very important part of every relationship and I think it's totally stupid to suppress it.
It happens that I'm an atheist while she's christian. Can you guys give me some arguments to convince her that pre-marital sex isn't a sin???
PHAROAH
i'm not sayin' you should disregard your girls religious beliefs but you guys have already opened "pandoras box" so as far as not havin' premarital sex thats already been done.
you say sex is a very important part of a relationship(i agree,bigtime)
when you 2 had sex,how was it? great? good? mediocre? lousy?
if it was great,then maybe she could wait.but i dont know too many women that want to wait for great sex.(and its been 2 months anyway)
if it was good it could prob be improved upon over time.
if it was mediocre,or lousy then i think you would be insane to wait any longer to "see if it will work out " after marriage.on paper marriage is supposed to be a lifetime commitment.you would be pretty pissed off and bummed out if you married this girl and found out you guys were sexualy incompatible.i could go on,and on about this,but i think i got the message out.
i hate to use this old cliche,but you wouldnt buy a car without drivin' it,so why would you want to enter into a long term commitment if you do not even know if you are sexualy compatible?.......you could always get a girlfriend/mistress,but if you did that then why bother bein' married?

[Pharaoh]

PHAROAH
i'm not sayin' you should disregard your girls religious beliefs but you guys have already opened "pandoras box" so as far as not havin' premarital sex thats already been done.
you say sex is a very important part of a relationship(i agree,bigtime)
when you 2 had sex,how was it? great? good? mediocre? lousy?
if it was great,then maybe she could wait.but i dont know too many women that want to wait for great sex.(and its been 2 months anyway)
if it was good it could prob be improved upon over time.
if it was mediocre,or lousy then i think you would be insane to wait any longer to "see if it will work out " after marriage.on paper marriage is supposed to be a lifetime commitment.you would be pretty pissed off and bummed out if you married this girl and found out you guys were sexualy incompatible.i could go on,and on about this,but i think i got the message out.
i hate to use this old cliche,but you wouldnt buy a car without drivin' it,so why would you want to enter into a long term commitment if you do not even know if you are sexualy compatible?.......you could always get a girlfriend/mistress,but if you did that then why bother bein' married?

that's a very good point. I would never marry a girl without having had sex. thank god, we already did it and it was quite good. she wasn't experienced at all, so it simply couldn't be spectacular. and after we had sex she sometimes told me that she felt guilty, so obviously she couldn't enjoy the sex completely. but we were definately compatible.
I think we were on a good way, it was getting better all the time.

I feel responsible to let all of you know how things develop since you're all taking part in this.
I was quite frustrated yesterday so I called her. I didn't try to change her mind but I was stupid enough to complain about her decision. It pissed her off and the one guy who said that it would make her push me away was definately right...
anyway, I just talked to her and apologized. I told her that I respect and ACCEPT her decision and that I will wait. She was overwhelmed and couldn't stop thanking me...
I think without you guys advise I would have indeed tried to change her decision, which would have been disastrous.
I'll see her in three weeks and I'll let you know what happened after I come back...

[austintatious]

Respect her morals and values. It's the best thing you can do for her. It's not all about sex. There's more to life. :)

It's not about a book, it's about her morals and her values. She is not ignorant, actually she is making an intelligent decision.

couldnt have said it better myself

[Pharaoh]

what I'd like to know from the guys who've been in similar situations:
what do girls who don't want sex before marriage usually think about petting?

do you think I'll at least get a hand- or a blowjob??? :blush:
just did my PE session and I'm horny man...

[flair1981]

My advice is to back away from the sex. She is right. Premarital sex is a sin. Even if you dont belive that...she does. If you really love her like you say, then do what she asks of you. Also think of the long term effects on your relationship if you get married. She will want to go to church...do you? Will you for her? Would she quit church or push her religious views away for you? If so, would you both resent it later? As a married man, these are some things you will want to know the answer to. Dont take advantage of her. A true loving relationship sometimes involves putting your wants aside for the other person. I think you know the right answer to this.

[Pharaoh]

My advice is to back away from the sex. She is right. Premarital sex is a sin. Even if you dont belive that...she does. If you really love her like you say, then do what she asks of you. Also think of the long term effects on your relationship if you get married. She will want to go to church...do you? Will you for her? Would she quit church or push her religious views away for you? If so, would you both resent it later? As a married man, these are some things you will want to know the answer to. Dont take advantage of her. A true loving relationship sometimes involves putting your wants aside for the other person. I think you know the right answer to this.


we talked about that. I wouldn't go to church, she wouldn't quit. respecting each other, that's it.
but I think there are indeed problems that I don't think of right now, but will occur later on.
think of upbringing and stuff...
anyway, I think we're not the only couple who face that problem, it might be hard but I'm sure it's possible to live together.

[millionman]

I want to say that it seems a good number of the guys on this forum say the word love a lot and don't seem to understand the true meaning. True love is unconditional, meaning it has no bounds. If this young woman wants to not have sex then you should love her anyway. Sex does not have to be a part of a relationship, it happens to be that us guys decide how we feel based on what we get in return. You can tell me I'm wrong all day, but I have been where you are, and it's rough, but you know what I cared about her, I didn't love her I loved her for what she did for me, and I guised it as love so that it would be ok for me to do what "people who love each other do". It's not right. You can say what you want, but read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. You may not believe but if you read what it says it is the true picture of love. Genuine caring, protection, provision, and passion. Think about it. Which one of the qualities mentioned would you not want in your future wife???

Also for those who don't believe I will point out the fact that Christ fulfilled 332 prophecies, and each and every book that contains any prophecy occurs no later than 1000 years before His birth, as verified by several of the governing historical bodies. That's a discussion we had in my world history class, the 4 gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have been found to be 99.9% accurate by academic standards. This standard has also been verified by archaeological digs, which found all locations descirbed specifically in Matt. and John which seemed to be conflicting, were proven to not be conflicting but the same place. For those who want to persue any of this info I suggest buying or borrowing a copy of The Case for Christ. For anyone who ascribes the label of good moral teacher to Christ think on this, He claimed to be GOD. You can't be a moral teacher if you're 1. Crazy 2. A liar 3. GOD...of all the things Christ was put through which of these seems to be more likely....if you look at the evidence you can only come to one conclusion, but that's up to you.

[Stuff_]

Jesus never claimed to be God.. but that's besides the point. There are books which give prophecies that were fullfilled written since at least 3000 years before his birth.. but that's besides the point. I'm not trying to start a religious debate or anything.. just wanted to point that out. The point is what you said about love is true, real love isn't related at all to sex. That's important to remember, sex is a material thing and real love is not material. Ultimately perfect love is love soley for God Himself, and that is the perfection and purpose of life. :)

[WNT2MORE]

I want to say that it seems a good number of the guys on this forum say the word love a lot and don't seem to understand the true meaning. True love is unconditional, meaning it has no bounds. If this young woman wants to not have sex then you should love her anyway. Sex does not have to be a part of a relationship, it happens to be that us guys decide how we feel based on what we get in return..
i gotta disagree with those of you that think sexual compatibility is trivial,or unimportant,and that sex does not have to be part of a relationship etc.
granted there is a big difference between being IN LOVE ,or IN LUST.being in lust is when the sex you are having with her makes you THINK that you are in love,but when you ARE in love the sex you have is one of the most basic,truest forms of GIVING yourself to her,and her to you. there is a special connection that 2 people in love share through sex which goes beyond just the physical pleasure.it is true that a relationship will not survive on sex alone,but it is also true that the relationship will not survive sexual incompatibility.the only reason most marriages prior to the 1960s lasted a lifetime was societys view of divorce.alot of unhappy couples stayed together because of this.
and while we are talking sex and religion, any of you people that are heavy into the church scene,and are in a sexualy incompatible relationship,dont worry there are 100s of preachers,pastors,and ministers that will be willing to satisfy a unhappy womans basic needs.
i am sure this post will piss a few people off,but this is my opinion and it took me nearly 43 years to form it. i UNDERSTAND the meaning of love,lust,and the difference between the two.i also understand that religion and those who preach it are not always what/who they appeasr to be.

[Pharaoh]

i gotta disagree with those of you that think sexual compatibility is trivial,or unimportant,and that sex does not have to be part of a relationship etc.
granted there is a big difference between being IN LOVE ,or IN LUST.being in lust is when the sex you are having with her makes you THINK that you are in love,but when you ARE in love the sex you have is one of the most basic,truest forms of GIVING yourself to her,and her to you. there is a special connection that 2 people in love share through sex which goes beyond just the physical pleasure.it is true that a relationship will not survive on sex alone,but it is also true that the relationship will not survive sexual incompatibility.the only reason most marriages prior to the 1960s lasted a lifetime was societys view of divorce.alot of unhappy couples stayed together because of this.
and while we are talking sex and religion, any of you people that are heavy into the church scene,and are in a sexualy incompatible relationship,dont worry there are 100s of preachers,pastors,and ministers that will be willing to satisfy a unhappy womans basic needs.
i am sure this post will piss a few people off,but this is my opinion and it took me nearly 43 years to form it. i UNDERSTAND the meaning of love,lust,and the difference between the two.i also understand that religion and those who preach it are not always what/who they appeasr to be.

I agree 1000 %, couldn't have said it better!

[millionman]

See I think there are a few that confuse religion, which is man made with faith. and yes Christ claimed to be God, he Said I come from the one who sent me, putting him on equal footing with God, he also said I am Alpha and Omega, again putting him on the same level with God. That is claiming to be God. I have to agree with you, being sexually compatible is neccessary for a relationship to be healthy, as God created sex for us to enjoy, and in the Song of Songs King Solomon and his wife discuss in great depth their passion for one another and also their enjoyment of each other. So yes sex is important in marriage. There's a lot of divorce in this country because of the lack of understanding of what true love is. The rate of divorce in the church is higher than in the secular world, which means that God's people aren't waiting for His best, or the majority of those in Church aren't true believers in Christ. There's a big difference between religion and faith, religion says this is what you do to get or achieve something, faith says I don't have to see to believe and being faithful is also having intimate contact with Christ.

On another note, if a woman or man are unequally yoked together there can be no relationship. If one is Christian and the other atheist, it will not work. In any relationship there must be shared and equal footing, that does not mean being the exact same, but being a help mate for each other it is neccessary to be equally yoked together, no one pulling any more or less than the other.

[Stuff_]

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a command, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His command is life everlasting: therefore I speak, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
(John 12:49-50)
But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
(John 14:31)
In the two verses above, God commands Jesus. If Jesus was God, nobody could command him. Moreover, Jesus says that he loves God. Love necessarily requires two parties; the lover and the beloved.
Not trying to start an arguement or anything, but "I come from the one who sent me" means that someone sent him, someone who is separate from him, that person was God. I don't want to get too off topic here though, or offend anyone. I'm sorry if I already have.

It is entirely possible to love someone to the purest degree, with all of your soul, without the slightest bit of sexual contact. We just associate everything materially because that's what we know, but there is nothing inherently wrong with that. The body desires sex, so naturally we want it. In the end the individual makes their own decisions and enjoys/suffers the results, so it's all good. :)

[millionman]

You have quoted corrctly, but you aren't looking at the entire verse. In John verse 44 Christ begins by saying "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes should stay in darkness." yes he is saying the one who sent me, but he is also saying and claiming to be God, to be taken from darkness to light is to forgive sins, and only God can forgive sins. How about John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me. If you really knew me you would know my father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him." He is again putting himself on the level with God by saying he is the only way to God, again the only one capable for forgiving sins is God. At the sametime the end of the verse He points out that if you knew me you would also know the Father, meaning they are one and the same. Then He goes one step further for clarity He says from now on you know Him and have seen Him, because they know Christ and could look at Christ they have also seen God.

Now, I am not trying to simply argue with you, or to prove you wrong. I am simply wanting to show to anyone who does not know or has never read for themselves anything Christ said or have ever wondered about who he really was, that you might see that he did indeed claim diety and he died so that we may live, and that he rose again on the third day.

Ohh, for anyone who wants to know I am not a church person, I was not raised in the church and I don't ascribe to some of the practices of the church. I love Christ, and I have come to know Him by thorugh reading and analysis. The facts are what they are, you have the ability to make the choice. The greatest decision I have ever made was to come into contact with Him. I share this because I love you guys.

[Pharaoh]

If one is Christian and the other atheist, it will not work. In any relationship there must be shared and equal footing, that does not mean being the exact same, but being a help mate for each other it is neccessary to be equally yoked together, no one pulling any more or less than the other.

I think you can't generalize things like this. There are couples living together happily until death without sharing the same belief.

[9cyclops9]

For anyone who ascribes the label of good moral teacher to Christ think on this, He claimed to be GOD. You can't be a moral teacher if you're 1. Crazy 2. A liar 3. GOD...of all the things Christ was put through which of these seems to be more likely....if you look at the evidence you can only come to one conclusion, but that's up to you.

Someone's been reading CS Lewis! Good stuff.


i also understand that religion and those who preach it are not always what/who they appeasr to be.

What's your point? Are religious people the only ones that are hypocrites? Everyone is a hypocrite, so what are you trying to say? Same with your "there are 100s of preachers" thing. There are thousands of men that would be willing to have sex with other men's wives, religious and not. So what's your point? The only point I can see in this statement is that there are men that would be willing to have sex with other men's wives. Sexual incompatibility has nothing to do with a lack of premarital sex. What I mean is, just because I haven't slept with my fiance yet doesn't mean that we won't have amazing sex when we get married, and I'd be willing to bet we'll be screwing like rabbits long after the couple that had sex often before marriage.


I think you can't generalize things like this. There are couples living together happily until death without sharing the same belief.

This may be. But if she reads the Bible thoroughly, she'll find a verse that says:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14 KJV)

Now, she may or may not decide to adhere to that verse. After all, it could be taken either literally, or as one man's (the Apostle Paul's) opinion.

I think this is what millionman was referring to when he made that statement.

[AlloyCG]

This thread has spiraled out of control. At least you guys aren't getting worked up over it =)

[millionman]

True....Cyclops I was looking for that verse, and it was a struggle. I know it by heart but not the book and chapter. On the same token there is the parable of two masters, you can serve and love one, but can only hate the other. The reason for this is you can not be a follower in Christ and stand for the things of the world. Everyone says Christ was a good teacher and he taught love and caring etc., but that's only part of the picture, Christ like God hated sin. He stood against everything the world stands for, simply because Satan has dominion over the world, and there is no righteousness in it. You honestly can't expect two completely different outlooks/philosophies to function together, because at some point the two will clash and cancel each other out, and leave only frustration anger and bitterness.

[Pharaoh]

What I mean is, just because I haven't slept with my fiance yet doesn't mean that we won't have amazing sex when we get married, and I'd be willing to bet we'll be screwing like rabbits long after the couple that had sex often before marriage.

I truly hope you will, but you just don't know for SURE.




Now, she may or may not decide to adhere to that verse.



You honestly can't expect two completely different outlooks/philosophies to function together, because at some point the two will clash and cancel each other out, and leave only frustration anger and bitterness.

That's when love comes into play...

[jakb]

This thread has spiraled out of control. At least you guys aren't getting worked up over it =)


True VERY true...

[millionman]

Honestly, I don't think you understand what it is that we are saying. Love as you see it is something that you feel. We are talking about love as a choice. Examply of this is God's love for us. It's never ending, it's always there, and we need not doubt it. The love you have described so far in your post says I need assurance of how you will perform and make me feel so that I can give you my love. God doesn't as us to do anything for His love, it's a free gift of grace give in the form of His one and only Son. Now what Cyclops is talking about is trusting in Him and knowing that God is watching over their relationship and keeping them for each other because they will have amazing and glorifying relations together, one that will be everything that they both desire, which follows along with Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given, seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened to you. For anyone who asks receives, he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks the door opened." At many points in my walk with Christ I have prayed for the woman I will spend the rest of my life with, and I know God will provide that in everyway. There is no doubt or unbelief, just knowing and trusting God. God won't let cyclops down, or anyone else for that matter, he holds up his end eternally.

[derringer57]

I didnt read page 2 or last part of page 1 where I am sure it "got out of control" but...


That's when love comes into play... Dude no. I cant tell you how many times my pastor asked our congregation to pray for a lady or a man who's spouse was not Christian and they wanted to have kids, but were at controversy knowing even if they agreed to bring em up Christian the spouse would not be setting an example.

Also praying they will come to believe, and to pray for the relationship as it is falling apart.

ANYWAYS, the Bible says to not be "unequally yoked", meaning do not marry non-believers. If she believes the Bible says do not have premarital sex she should believe this one. No offense, but it wont work, and I am not here to doom you, just telling you how it has happened countless times.

And you can know the sex will be good. Oddly I can tell with my sister and the man she is going to marry, both who have remained abstinant all their lives and to each other. One of the biggest reasons for getting married besides they are madly in love and perfect for each other. You can tell the way they act.

[C-Guy]

For starters marriage is about compromise. You say you say you will not go to church with her, and she will not follow you athesist ways. Man I hate to bust your bubble but you are both in for a rude awakening. When companions agree on such basic issues marriage is tough. To disagree from the beginning .... man i can't even imagine that.

[WNT2MORE]

What's your point? Are religious people the only ones that are hypocrites? Everyone is a hypocrite, so what are you trying to say? Same with your "there are 100s of preachers" thing. There are thousands of men that would be willing to have sex with other men's wives, religious and not. So what's your point? The only point I can see in this statement is that there are men that would be willing to have sex with other men's wives. Sexual incompatibility has nothing to do with a lack of premarital sex.
LMAO BIGTIME!
yeah,alot of other men could/would fuck your wife or girlfriend,but they arent using the bible and the word of god to get into the pants of a vunerable woman,and if you think this doesnt happen(ALOT!) then u are living in a fantasy world.i'm not sayin they all are,there are alot of good preachers(more good than bad) etc.but there are plenty of bad ones.my beef with the church is when they catch these slimeballs they just "ENCOURAGE" them to move to another parish.when doctors ,or other types that people place their faith in get caught doin this shit,THEY GET PROSECUTED"



What I mean is, just because I haven't slept with my fiance yet doesn't mean that we won't have amazing sex when we get married, and I'd be willing to bet we'll be screwing like rabbits long after the couple that had sex often before marriage. THERE ARE MANY COMBINATIONS THAT YOU CAN ROLL WITH DICE,MAYBE YOU WILL ROLL A 7,GOOD LUCK

[WNT2MORE]

I agree 1000 %, couldn't have said it better!
GOOD LUCK MAN,I HOPE THINGS WORK OUT FOR YA!

[9cyclops9]

LMAO BIGTIME!
yeah,alot of other men could/would fuck your wife or girlfriend,but they arent using the bible and the word of god to get into the pants of a vunerable woman,and if you think this doesnt happen(ALOT!) then u are living in a fantasy world.i'm not sayin they all are,there are alot of good preachers(more good than bad) etc.but there are plenty of bad ones.my beef with the church is when they catch these slimeballs they just "ENCOURAGE" them to move to another parish.when doctors ,or other types that people place their faith in get caught doin this shit,THEY GET PROSECUTED"

You're confusing Catholicism with Christianity. Catholicism is ONE BRANCH of Christianity, not the whole thing. Corruption like you speak of happens far more often in Catholicism than in Protestant denominations because Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry. Protestant pastors are. Catholic priests have bottled up sexual desires because they aren't permitted to release them. So they are much more likely to try to take advantage of someone in the situation you've described. Most protestant pastors have wives, so they have no suppressed sex drives screaming to get released.

But I'll say it again. There is corruption in EVERY group of people. Why do you look down on Christians so much for it, but when I mention that other people are the same you just blow it off? Why does it matter whether they use the word of God or if they use money, a position (screwing the boss for a promotion), or any other method? Is one way any more wrong than any other? Why do you look down on pastors who would take advantage of sexually frustrated women more than you look down on any other guy doing the same thing? And I think you're mistaken. Pastors and priests get prosecuted for this stuff too.

I have 100% confidence that we will be sexually compatible when we get married. Assume for a minute God exists. I don't know if you believe He does or not, but assume. Say you go to buy a new car and God tells you "WNT2MORE, you will love this car. This is a car that you can drive for the rest of your life and be happy about it." Don't you think you would trust him on that? Assuming that God is the all-knowing creator that I believe Him to be, I think you could take his advice and buy the car without a test drive.

Now. I believe 100% that my fiance is the person God has set aside for me to marry. I believe he is telling me "Cyclops, this girl is perfect for you. This is a girl you an spend the rest of your life with and be totally satisfied with her and never have to look anywhere else for satisfaction of any kind." I'll trust Him on that one, and I don't need a test drive.

[Pharaoh]

At many points in my walk with Christ I have prayed for the woman I will spend the rest of my life with, and I know God will provide that in everyway. There is no doubt or unbelief, just knowing and trusting God. God won't let cyclops down, or anyone else for that matter, he holds up his end eternally.

god never lets anybody down, right?
wasn't it you who wrote that there are higher divorce rates in church?


For starters marriage is about compromise. You say you say you will not go to church with her, and she will not follow you athesist ways. Man I hate to bust your bubble but you are both in for a rude awakening. When companions agree on such basic issues marriage is tough. To disagree from the beginning .... man i can't even imagine that.

I don't know if I get your point. isn't the "no church-no atheist way-thing" a compromise?

anyway, have you ever thought of couples who share different believes? that CAN work out as well and that raises way more problems than a believer and a non-believer ever will encounter.


GOOD LUCK MAN,I HOPE THINGS WORK OUT FOR YA!
Thanx bro!

[Pharaoh]

I know I start writing off topic as well. anway, what I'd like to add to the divorce rate thing:

don't you think all couples (apart from certain examples) think that they found THE one? so how come the rate in church is higher?
I tell you why:
If you don't live together beforehand, if you don't have sex, than you just don't REALLY know the other person. you think you do, but you don't.
If you live a wordly life, you might have a couple of relationships before you get married. but this helps you to find out what you really want, what you are looking for in a girl. and you don't have these relationships because you want to have a few ones. no, every time you think that she's the one. but it might take you years to find out if you are compatible or not. So I think it's incredibly naive to marry a girl you couldn't really get to know. that can give you a rude awakening as well!
Some of you tell me about TRUE love and even question my love. how do you know? I take advise from a married man like kong, but not from someone who's never lived it.
I have already been engaged and I have seen how love can blossom and how love can fade. I know what love is man. We didn't break up because we had sex or lived together for some years. It simply took us 2 years (which were wonderful most of the time) to find out that we are incompatible. What if I had married her before? I'd be among the divorce rate myself. And believe me, I felt she was the one.

[millionman]

See this is the problem. You use reason and rationalize your decisions despite the fact that God's word which is infallible says Sex is to be saved for marriage. This is not a personal attack, I've been there myself. You say live together and figure it out, but see the problem with figuring it out is the damage that "figuring" it out causes to both parties. The reason the divorce rate in the church is so high stems from several things, mainly people going through relationships and "figuring" it out and ending up just wanting someone, someone to love, to care for etc. Christ talks about serving two masters. You will love one and hate the other, because you can not have two allegiances. Again this comes back to this discussion very quickly, you can't be a believer in the Savior and take little bits of what he says and then combine that with what the world says. For how can light and darkness exist in the same body??? A good number of people within the church are...shockingly not Christian. They play at church and go about doing the "religious" things that everyone seems to not really like or regard too highly. See as men we can not know a man's heart, but God says you will know my children by the fruit they bear. My biggest point in all of this Pharoah is when does faith come into play, when do we become part of something bigger than ourselves, and when does it stop being about me, me, me??? The biggest reason people deny who Christ was is not because he wasn't who he said he was, but because he requires too much, the perfect example is the rich young man. He persued Christ and said what must I do to follow you, Christ replied give away all of your belongings and follow me. He requires too much of us to lay down our lives to serve Him and to love others as He loved is extremely difficult. Love is all that is neccessary to survive, and by the Grace of God we have the Son and eternal life through Him.

[55chevy]

Guys I have been a lurker for a while now. This thread has really gotten my interest. Pharaoh, you said you wanted some other christian veiws on this. A lot of what has been said already goes directly back to the Bible. Some people don't believe in the Bible. Me, I believe every word in it. I think if you believe one word you have to believe all of it. It does say in the Bible that believers should not be with non believers. That is in black and white and leaves little doubt as to what is meant. Millionman brought this up after almost two pages. When I read the initial post this was the first thing that came to my mind. What I would like is for someone to show me in the Bible that Pre marital sex is wrong. In the front of the Bible it speaks often about things that are sexually immoral. I don't think that it is specific about premarital sex with someone you truely love. It also doesn't speak about masturbation. If God saw these things as terribly wrong don't you think that he would have said in black and white that these things are sexually immoral. Also Jesus is not God. It is pretty plain in the most known verse in the Bible, John 3:16 that Jesus is Gods son. It also says that no man can come to the father unless it is thru the son. It is a sad fact that the Church is in the state it is in. Yes the divorce rate is higher than it should be in and out of the church. Just because someone goes to church or is a church member doesnt mean that they are going to live for the Lord and do his will. Every man who stands in the pulpit and preaches is not a man of God either. I will promise you that a true man of God will never take advantage of your wife or girlfriend. Now I didn't say that this couldn't happen in a church environment I just said that a TRUE man of God wouldn't do this. Also one last thing, It is in the Bible many times that divorce is wrong and it even states that God HATES divorce. There is not but one reason that is grounds for divorce and that is adultery. It is also plain that if a person is divorced from their spouse that they should reconcile with them or remain unmarried. If these principles were obeyed I can just about guarentee you that the divorce rate would be almost zero. I think that the problem is not what's in the Bible , it's the way it's being applied.

[millionman]

55, I agree with you, that yes Christ is the son, but it as I have already discussed that Christ places himself on the same level of God, meaning they are the same, it's a trinity, three parts whole yet separate entities. Luke 5:20, Jesus heals the paralytic, but before that Christ says "Friend your sins are forgiven" "He goes on to say, which is easier to say, "Your sins are forgiven, or to say Get up and walk? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on Earth to forgive sins...." The biggest problem most people seem to have with this discussion is whether or not Christ is God, and the answer is he can be nothing else. He is the son, yes that's true, but He is also God, again being 100% man and 100% God is not an easy thing for us to comprehend. There are several books by well versed and highly thought of writers who have written about this concept in great detail one being my favorite C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity is a difficult read, but very informative. I hope some of you guys get intrigued enough about this subject to at least find out about it. It's one thing to say something does not work, but if you know nothing of the subject at hand, How can you claim it does not work???

Chevy, I agree with you about the church. Great statements. I hope you are blessed all your days.

[flair1981]

How about this. If my dad sent me to the store, and the manager asks "where did you come from?" and I replied "From the one who sent me." Would that mean that I was in fact my dad? No, it would mean my dad was the one who sent me here.

Also on the where in the Bible does it say that pre marrital sex is a sin. In Exodus IIRC, it speaks of a persons nakedness as being only for themselves or their husbands..or wifes. Theres alot being said there than just a simple sentence. In alot of the Bible things are implied over and beyond the surface of a simple statement or verse, and you have to dig deep to get the full meaning of it. I guess the argument could be made like... "if we have sex with the lights out then I wont see her nakedness" ....Well, excuses are easy to make if thats the case, and you know when your making them.

[penguinsfan]

Pharoah, I think your love for this girl is commendable. However, I have to agree with some of the others in questioning such a relationship long-term. I was raised in a Christian home, followed the religion for many years, and now consider myself non-religious. Just with the moral foundation and belief structure alone that believing in the basic teachings of the Bible has left me, I could never have a relationship with an atheist. I just think a belief a a higher power and an afterlife of reward or punishment shapes so much of a person's actions that I can't imagine it ever working.

[millionman]

Yes, Christ said He was sent by the Father, but what about the Holy Spirit, it was sent and appeared as a dove descending from the sky, when Jesus was baptized, but yet if you blasphemy in the Holy Spirit you are barred from entering heaven. Does that mean the Holy Spirit is not God, that emplies the opposite, it again was sent by God, but yet is equal to Him. My point again is to say Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three things separate but each is part of God. It's known as the Holy Trinity for that very reason.

Well, in regards to pre-marital sex, scripture says that there are certain things that are to be kept between a married man and woman. A whole other aspect of it is in 2Timothy 2:22, it says to flee from the appearance of evil, including and specifically those things sexually immoral. Matthew 5:27-30 which discusses looking at a woman with lust and it equalling adultery, which would mean if you weren't married to her you would be comitting adultery, which would be pre-marital relations would it not. God makes it very clear that marriage was created for the joys of marriage, song of songs, and also ecclesiastes when he speaks of sexual impurity brining no happiness as that of the wedding bed. I've been down this road before trying to make it seem like because I loved her and I was going to spend the rest of my life with her it was alright, even though in my heart I knew I was wrong. I made a huge mistake believing that, and if cost me the woman that I really cared for, and now we don't speak or IM or anything, and for me it was one of the hardest things I have ever dealth with. It matters a whole lot when it comes down to it, some say it doesn't but I those are the ones that I never see in relationships and they ask why can't I maintain a relationship. Physical love does not equate to true love, I found that out at the end of my last realtionship.

[flair1981]

I think you missed my point Millionman. I belive it the same way you do.

[millionman]

I got you. I didn't think my earlier posts made a lot of sense once I reread them, I sometimes have a hard time expressing myself openly on the forum. So I get kind of scatter brained, especially when it comes to faith. It's just one of my many struggles. Thanks for posting Flair, and anyone else who has stood up for your faith, the Body of Christ needs soldiers who will go out and spread the Gospel. Even if it's over the internet, it has to take place some where.

[dizzle]

Buddy, you define the word "whipped". My suggestion to you is to forget about the size of your dick for a minute and grow some balls. Guys like you make it too easy for guys like me. Go get some practice with some sluts, come back and fuck her right this time. If you can get a girl off, she'll never cut you off.

[millionman]

You can have all the quantity you want, I'm going to hold out for quality. Sounds to me like Pharoah has that in his mind. I do agree with you to a degree, you can't place women on a pedestal and pamper them or kiss their butts. You have to know who you are and what you stand for, otherwise you stand for nothing and fall for anything, and no woman would ever be satisfied in a wishy washy do anything she wants relationship. At the same time you don't have to call him out, he cares for the girl and it matters enough to him to try to maintain the realtionship. I've been around a good bit, and it's not a rewarding life, all it got me was a lot of pain and suffering at my own selfish hand. So I wait patiently for my wife, and woman still love me, there's no law against being charming and charismatic, no one ever said being a Christian had to be boring. You have to live life, and enjoy the days God has given you, so why not enjoy yourself within His word, there's plenty we have fun with, it's not all rules and regulations.

[55chevy]

Guys while I respect your beliefs I still don't think you can show me in the Bible where it says that pre marital sex is wrong. I have looked and just as you know it's not there. It deals with sexual immorality and impurity but don't you think that God or Jesus would have been a little more specific on this if it were that wrong. Let me explain my thoughts, Some things in the Bible are in black and white. These things are pretty much cut and dried. In other things there is a sorta gray area. I really think a persons beliefs defines what is right and wrong in these areas. In other words I think that if you think these things are wrong for you to do then they probably are. While I am not saying that it is ok for a person to go out and bang everything in sight (I think this is where the immoral and impure comes from) I also don't think that two people who really love each other and are devoted to each other are doing anything wrong. If you spent the rest of your life with one woman and was truely devoted and faithful to her would it be wrong to have sex with her just because you were not married. If your answer is yes then I hope we can agree to disagree. I think that in this circumstance that in the eyes of God you are already married. I believe that marriage is a bond that brings two people together as one. I also believe you can have this without a cerimony.I don't think that there is anything immoral or impure about true love. Again I think the problem comes back to the application. There is a big difference between love and lust. The Bible tells us about love in the new testament. It is some of my favorite things to read in the Bible.

[millionman]

The only problem with what you are saying is this, if you define things a certain way and I define them a certain way, who's right and who's wrong. The reason why this does not work is you can't say if I feel it is right for me to kill you then it's right, and if you don't think it's right then it's wrong. Within this structure of thought right and wrong is still right and wrong, but you are essentially saying there is no right in wrong, but you are still saying there is right and wrong as you define it, but this can not be so. In God's word it is clear that he intended sex to be saved for marriage, song of songs vividly expresses the two lover's joy and how pleasing it is to the Lord. God is very clear on His stance on premarital sex, and I had to suffer much pain and anguish because I did not think it was a big deal because I was with the woman I was going to spend the rest of my life with, and we were devoted. God defines comittment as marriage, till death do you part that is devotion. You can say what you want about this, but Christ did not say go enjoy yourselves carnally as you will, and come to me later on. He admonished us to live purely and to be living sacrifices because we love and cherish Him. We are commanded to take up our crosses daily and to live for Him, which means you can't have your version of Christianity, because He has already defined what it means to truely live for him. I hope you can see what I mean, Christ did not say I am one of the ways, one of the truths, or some of the life. He didn't make it an either or proposition, so why would sex be any different???

[55chevy]

What I said was that some things were very plain in the Bible. Murder and killing is one of the things that is very plain. I think that the sixth of the ten commandments says"you shall not murder". That is very plain and very easy to understand. If you start reading your Bible right there in Exodus chapter 20 there are a lot of do's and don'ts that are clearly defined in it and the next few chapters. Chapter 22 starting at verse 16 deals with social responsibilities. I do agree with a lot of what you have said. I especially agree that God didn't say go and enjoy yourselves carnally but it is not very clear in the Bible about premarital sex. How hard would it have been for God or Jesus to have said anything about a sexual relationship before marriage. Not one time in the old or the new testament is it very clear that this is wong. It says that a person is not to be immoral. If I am wrong about this I will gladly change my position and apologize if you can give me a chapter and verse that deals with this specifically. You know as well as I that it's not in there. I'm not trying to say that it's ok to sleep around but I am saying that I believe there are some times that it is not wrong to have sexual relations outside of a marriage cerimony. There are a lot of preconcieved notions about the Bible that are not actually in the Bible. A lot of these deal with some of the things that have been discussed in this thread. I am not trying to get into an argument but rather I am just saying what I believe. You may believe something totally different. I am surely not going to tell you that I'm right and you are wrong but I also don't think you can tell me that you are right and I'm wrong. We are simple human beings and we think with simple human brains. We aren't supposed to know and understand all things that are in the Bible but we are to study it and live by it the best we can. I will stand by my statement I made earlier. Some things in the Bible are in black and white and are very clear. Other things are not so very clear. I think a persons beliefs are what helps him through these gray areas.

[55chevy]

One more thing, In Leviticus starting in chapter 18 the Bible speaks about unlawful sexual relations. Chapter 19 deals with other various laws and chapter 20 deals with the Biblical punishments for these sins. It is odd to me that of all the things mentioned that premarital sex was not among them. This is some very good reading and the great thing about it is it is very plain spoken as to what is meant.

[millionman]

Very true, but at the same time you have to look at 1 corinthians and what is said in regards to sexual immorality, and then to look at it from this perspective, Christ said if you look upon a woman with lust you have comitted adultery with her, which would implicate sex before marriage as being immoral and outside of God's intended purpose. I am not saying I'm right or you're wrong, I am saying that you are implying things that because it does not say thou shalt not that it's unclear, but within the verse I mentioned and at the same time in the ten commandements it is clear that adultery is wrong, which means if you are having sex outside of marriage the woman is not yours to have, so you are sleeping with another man's wife. You can say well that's not really there, but it is made clear through Christ's words, because he takes it one step further and says the thought is immoral, so what does that say about the physical action being ok some of the time???

[55chevy]

Like I said I'm not trying to argue or even change your mind for that matter. We have a lot of common ground in our beliefs but this is not one of them. I think that when you have sexual relations with a person that in Gods eyes you are already married. That is why I think that it is wrong to try to hit everything in sight. I have not nor will I ever do this. Just as the Bible says , the body is a temple and should be treated as such. Good luck in finding your special someone. I found mine when I was very young. We spent 16 of my first 28 years together until a car accident ended it. I know what it feels like to have that special relationship. Everyone should have a chance to have this. I am now in a long term relationship with another special person. I hope to one day be truely happy again on this earth. I know it can happen because with our Lord all things are possible.

[penguinsfan]

You guys would probably both be appalled by checking out www.libchrist.com. I stumbled onto it a couple years ago somehow, I think while researching some prophecy or something and it got spit out in a search engine. Having been raised in a religious home, I was kind of floored. I've never before seen anyone try and justify the swinging lifestyle as Biblically acceptable.

[millionman]

Peguin, just for the record I'm not religious, and I never have been. It's always interesting to spring this thought on people. Where Jesus Christ begins religion ends, simply because religion says that there are certain things you must do to please God to gain access to His heaven, but with Christ this is not the case, He said confess with your mouth and believe in your hearts that I am Lord and you shall be saved.

It's interesting to me also how there are believers who like to say well God is ok with this, or he's ok with that, but it runs contrary to His Holy Word. This entire thread I have not spoken from my own mouth, but from the Word of God, the Holy Bible. His word makes it clear to those who read it the true meaning, and if in your mind he is not clear on premarital sex, then that's fine, it's your choice, but it does not equate with being righteous in God's eyes. His word is infallible and God's will is made clear for our relationships with women as we are to not even think of being sexually involved with them until we are married to that woman. Otherwise you are comitting adultery because she is not your wife, as you are not married to her. Honestly, even if you look at it from a logical perspective this thought carries through till the end, but yet if you look at the converse it runs contrary to everything God is, meaning His word is not infallible and that He is not perfect menaing we might as well pack it up and move on to something new, cause He does not matter anymore, he's irrelevant. Deconstruction happens to be one of my favorite things about being a philosophy major, but hey it's a double major I happen to enjoy being a Biology major as well.

[iwant8inches]

she's ignorrant. tell her to think for herself rather than have a book tell her what to do.


(this doesn't mean im baggin religion or god or etc blar blar)

hold on, now im gonna go on a rant.

if a bible tells us what to do, and a science book tells us what to think, then there is absolutly nothing for us to achieve in our life.


so, think for yourself.

If anything religion tells people what to think. If that is true then what is the next thing it does?

Science is the reuslt of our own need to discover, uncover, and define ourself and our world. In other words one of our main desires is to seek an understanding of our surroundings and existence as evidenced by religion. The only difference is a defined answer to our questions is offered by science. Science won't conede or claim anything other than this is what this is and this is how this happens and this is what we did and how we discovered this. It's just studying and observing while prevailing through trial and error. If it sounds logical or reasonably intelligent and it appeals to you then you'll think along the same lines, but it doesn't end there. If you disagree you can go and seek the truth you believe is there. There are things we don't understand and benevolent and manevloent forces are out there. The thing is these forces are as tangible as intangible. I honestly think that plenty of people fear such things as sinning and spirits because they can't explain much or at least anything very well. The more intelligent then "informed" them and took advantage of this ignorance we all share. The thing is it has been embedded into our genes and it's hard to do away with. We have to respect these beliefs, but we don't have to agree with them. The reason why religion started was because we had an overwhelming void of knowledge of our world and our existence. We replaced that void somewhat with worship of the surroundings and things we couldn't see, but felt in our hearts, our soul. So, I guess since hundreds and hundreds of years of desensitizing our basic humanic instincts of sexual reproduction has infiltrated the majority of this country you will have a tough time getting her to share your same views on sex. (at least the belief that sex before marriage is wrong...something that was created by whom...church? and I mean marriage the way Ohians and many other citizens want to fight to protect (one man one woman) because they think they are protecting their morals all the while plans to move forward on another military operation is more than on the way that will ultimately lead to the death of many more that have already fallen in this broadly dubbed "War on Terror". Okay, sorry for this...I'm just distraught right now. I live in Ohio.

Good luck with your girlfriend Pharoah. I hope it all works out if it hasn't already.

[millionman]

Well in your post you are illustrating science as this is how it as and it's thoroughness at explaining things in entirty. This is a falsehood. Science unlike other things is based on theories that appear to be relevant, and have some factual standing. Such a thing like evolution still remains a theory, but is taught as fact. For you to say that religion is for the unintelligent and uninformed masses is quite ludicrous. The first church was not founded on coercing people into belief or killing them for their unbelief, it was about forming a lasting relationship with Jesus Christ and a true transition into righteousness. If you look at this with a clear eye you will see that it is our desire to explain our world and to understand it better that further reveals the creator, things such as rainbows, gravity, and DNA all in different ways reveal a creator to us. There are so many things like DNA or retinal patterns that science can not explain how they grew to be unique, that is where faith comes in. It's not simply following along with what some minister says, we can read the word for ourselves and come to understand it or to disbelieve it. That's the only choice we are left with. No since in quarreling over it's validity, the new testament was written between A.D. 31-60, so it is indeed accurate, and the old testament translations have over 25,000 full manuscripts in original Hebrew and Latin editions that it is shown to be accurate as well. We all stand in judgement at the day of reckoning, Christ died and rose again on the third day and he is the only way to eternal life.

[Pharaoh]

Hi everybody!
I just returned from my visit and I thought I let you know what happened.
First of all, we didn't have sex, though it would have been easy for me to make it happen.
It's definately nothing that would work in a long-term perspective but it worked for now.

[Shithead]

Christ died and rose again on the third day and he is the only way to eternal life.

so if i don't beleive in christ i don't get eternal life? or if i beleive in buddah or allah instead of christ i don't get eternal life?

[9cyclops9]

That's the idea.

[Shithead]

That's the idea.

please tell me your being sarcastic, because that belief is absolutly disgusting.

[penguinsfan]

please tell me your being sarcastic, because that belief is absolutly disgusting.

It's not an idea that I personally follow or subscribe to, but abstainence in such relationships can be advantageous to some. "Disgusting" seems like a harsh term for your criticism of this.

[Shithead]

It's not an idea that I personally follow or subscribe to, but abstainence in such relationships can be advantageous to some. "Disgusting" seems like a harsh term for your criticism of this.

no no no, you've got my statement mixed up with different topics. i was meaning its disgusting to beleif that only people who believe in christ will get eternal life.

cyclops and millionman were earlier saying that only people who beleive in christ will get eternal life, so those who beleive in allah, buddah or are athiests or people who never have the chance to hear of christ, none of them will get eternal life. which i think is a disgusting belief.

[millionman]

It indeed would be a disgusting belief, if we were the ones perpetrating it. Chirst said,"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one cometh to the father but by me." I am not claiming to have said they are wrong, but God said anything outside of His son will not enter the gates of heaven. It is a distatsteful thing, but it is the reality that we live. People who have not heard, their blood is on our hands, because we are called to "go forth and make disciples of all nations." It's one thing for me to say these things, but the Son of Man says these things, who do you choose to believe. "It is godd for those who have seen and believed, but I tell you greater are those who have not seen yet still believed." If you choose to not believe then the choice is yours, you have heard and it is between you and God.

[9cyclops9]

Shithead, if you look at ANY major religion, you'll find the same thing. Check out Islam. They don't believe Christians can go to heaven. That's why the ultra-zealous Muslim sect has declared Jihad (holy war) on America as a Christian nation. It isn't just a Christian thing to exclude other religion. In fact, the only religion I can think of that thinks anyone of any religion can get into heaven is Universalism. And Universalism contradicts every religion it attempts to embrace.

[penguinsfan]

no no no, you've got my statement mixed up with different topics. i was meaning its disgusting to beleif that only people who believe in christ will get eternal life.

cyclops and millionman were earlier saying that only people who beleive in christ will get eternal life, so those who beleive in allah, buddah or are athiests or people who never have the chance to hear of christ, none of them will get eternal life. which i think is a disgusting belief.

Okay, my mistake. I understand you now. Yet, as cyclops said, the belief in exclusivity of heaven is not something Christians have a monopoly on. It's pretty universal throughout religions. Understandably, I know it is a hard belief for non-religious people to accept.

[Shithead]

Shithead, if you look at ANY major religion, you'll find the same thing. Check out Islam. They don't believe Christians can go to heaven. That's why the ultra-zealous Muslim sect has declared Jihad (holy war) on America as a Christian nation. It isn't just a Christian thing to exclude other religion. In fact, the only religion I can think of that thinks anyone of any religion can get into heaven is Universalism. And Universalism contradicts every religion it attempts to embrace.

this is the worst argument i've heard for a while. your justifying your religious statment by saying that every other religion does it too.

its like a little kid being told off by his mum, and the kids says "but all the other kids do it"

[millionman]

Cyclops is telling the truth, other religions are exclusive to who can and can't get into heaven. There are buddhists sects that say if you are outside of a certain caste you can not achieve nirvana, and the same is true in Hinduism. There is an essential aspect to all religions that is strickingly different from Christianity, none seem to explain sin and how to reach God while still being in Sin. At the same time none of the central figures of the world religions ever claimed to be God. Again, i am asking you to explain what you believe as opposed to saying something is just stupid and brush it off. I would rather know what you think and what you believe than to have a bunch of flaming going on.

[Shithead]

Cyclops is telling the truth, other religions are exclusive to who can and can't get into heaven. There are buddhists sects that say if you are outside of a certain caste you can not achieve nirvana, and the same is true in Hinduism. There is an essential aspect to all religions that is strickingly different from Christianity, none seem to explain sin and how to reach God while still being in Sin. At the same time none of the central figures of the world religions ever claimed to be God. Again, i am asking you to explain what you believe as opposed to saying something is just stupid and brush it off. I would rather know what you think and what you believe than to have a bunch of flaming going on.

im not quite sure on my beleifs but i'll have a stab at explaining them. i do believe in an afterlife and a god, but i don't believe in religion. religion only creates what it stands against. i think that everyone should have their own unique beliefs, and in a perfect world people would always talk to each other about their beleifs so they can constantly change and improve their opinion.

but some things should be intrinsicaly universal, such as everyone is equal.

[millionman]

Ok, I see what you are saying. I don't believe in religion either. Simply as you said religion says do this but not this, this is acceptable but if you do this you'll never be good enough to enter Heaven. Here's where things become very interesting. Jesus Christ never said do this this and this to get to my father, but to accept me and receive ever lasting life. That was all, no religion, no it is absolutley necessary for you to not dance with women, or don't drink ever, or hey you can't play music in church. Christ simply came to spread the word of the Father and to die and be raised again on the third day, which symbolizes our defeat over the grave and Hell, because He actually took the keys to the gates of Hell himself. You may say that's a story, but nothing has ever been more true than this. If you want my personal testimony you can PM me, I may actually post it in the deep thoughts forum sometime this week. You may not consider this a big deal, but I promise it is a huge deal for you to seek this out, it may change your life, I say may, it will change your life from the inside out. I've been there, and I stand accountable for the things I've said throughout this entire post. If I have done anything or slandered anyone, or have not spoken the word in Love and in truth then I am not who I claim to be, but if I have spoken no ill will then who here can say that I am deceitful. The only benefit to anyone who listens to the words I've spoken is to receive the truth and be freed from the burdens of the world. If anyone does not have access to the bible you can go to bible.com and look up verses and even things you may have heard by word or phrase. Check it out and if anyone has any question feel free to contact me, whichever way you choose to.

[9cyclops9]

im not quite sure on my beleifs but i'll have a stab at explaining them. i do believe in an afterlife and a god, but i don't believe in religion. religion only creates what it stands against. i think that everyone should have their own unique beliefs, and in a perfect world people would always talk to each other about their beleifs so they can constantly change and improve their opinion.

but some things should be intrinsicaly universal, such as everyone is equal.

So it took all this to find that our beliefs are similar. I, like you, don't believe in "religion" as such, but I am a Christian. I don't, however, associate myself with any particular branch of Christianity. I was raised a Southern Baptist and I now attend a Presbyterian church because of all the churches I've been to in Boston, this particular church coincides with my beliefs the most. But I don't claim to be a Baptist or a Presbyterian, just a Christian. And the fundamental, basic belief (and the only belief required) to be a Christian is that Christ was the Son of God, and that his death and resurrection paid the price of our sins. Every other issue that gets argued amongst Christians is debateable, and most are very petty, but for whatever reason these small issues cause big problems, and this is the reason for the denominational system.

Some things in the Bible are very clear, black and white. Such as do not kill, lie, steal, etc. Some things are more vague, and are subject to personal conviction. For instance, I have no problem whatsoever with a little gambling, such as a $10 poker game. My fiance, however, feels gambling is bad because it can lead to some huge problems. I agree that it can, but there are certain types of people that can't handle just $10 here and there. It becomes addicting, and that's when it becomes wrong in my mind.

I didn't mean to make this such a long post, I'm just trying to demonstrate that our beliefs are very similar. I think a lot of people, and perhaps you also, Shithead, have a skewed image of Christianity. The idea of personal conviction defining sin is something that a lot of people don't realize is a teaching in Christianity. The Apostle Paul said "All is permissible for me, but not all is beneficial." He also taught that while there may be things that you don't think are wrong, but if you doing these things will cause someone else to stumble, then you should do it. I think most people get the idea that Christians have a list of rules for us to follow, or that we all follow exactly what the Pope says is right and wrong. But that isn't what Christianity is about. It isn't about a rulebook, or making brownie points with God to get into heaven, or how many good deeds you did or didn't do. It has only to do with accepting Christ as your Savior, and everything else is minor in comparison.

[Shithead]

im not completely sure on my opinions when it comes to jesus, i do believe he existed, but for him to be the son of god... it just doesn't sit well with me, it implies god has all these limits, like he's a consious entity, and other such finite aspects. which i don't beleive.

[millionman]

How would you say he has finite aspects by becoming a man....Jesus did amazing things, like healing a paralytic, the blind being able to see, feeding 5,ooo people with 3 loaves of bread and two fish. Does that seem like it would be finite, or limitless??? God is a conscious entity....I'm not sure this is what you were reaching for....so maybe elaborate on your point slightly.

[penguinsfan]

What I have a problem with, and I bet Shithead can relate to this, is when clergy will preach as if some of the things that are not so black and white are as defined as that which is clearly black and white. For example, in the church I was raised in, we were taught that any gambling, drinking of any amount of alcohol, dancing was a sin the same as murder or adultery. That's a load of shit and just one of many reasons why I am no longer a religious person. I haven't been to church in eight years and I doubt I'll ever go back.

[Shithead]

How would you say he has finite aspects by becoming a man....Jesus did amazing things, like healing a paralytic, the blind being able to see, feeding 5,ooo people with 3 loaves of bread and two fish. Does that seem like it would be finite, or limitless??? God is a conscious entity....I'm not sure this is what you were reaching for....so maybe elaborate on your point slightly.

i really think you don't understand. if god made jesus, its like god made a decision, and that suggests he has a conscious, and even though it might be superiour to a normal human, it still would have limits. if god can make a decision, that means he thinks, and is an entity, and therefore his limits could be measured in various ways (don't ask me how, coz if you do you've completly missed the point), thus its possible for there to be copies of god because he is a thing, and it would be possible for there to be things bigger and smaller than god if he is finite.

[millionman]

So what you are essentially saying because God exists and He maed the decision to create the World, the Univers, and US along with it He has a limited concious. To be honest this makes no sense how this would mean he is limited. "His thoughts are not our thoughts, Hiw ways are not our ways." No one can comprehend the Mind of God, if he were limited that would mean He is not omniscient or omnipresent. Not to be rude, but your thought process about being an entity seems very convuluted. God has to exist, which then would mean if He created the World He made a decision, which then would mean He created us and allowed us to choose, but it does not make Him a finite entity, but infinite because His powers are limitless and His mind can not be understood. In the Old Testament when God showed His glory to Moses He could only reveal the trail of HIs glory, because Moses would have died from the Beauty and the Power of God's presence. Within the argument that He is finite and limited does not stand because of what He revealed to us through His son Jesus Christ.

[Shithead]

you just don't understand millionman. and in your last post your pretty much reciting a whole lot of crap word for word, which shows how much you can think outsite the norm.

[9cyclops9]

I think you don't understand, Shithead. God cannot be defined by the human brain. You can't comprehend the infinite, which is why these characteristics seem limiting to you. The fact that we can't comprehend God or attempt to define him is one thing that a belief in God automatically includes.

[Shithead]

I think you don't understand, Shithead. God cannot be defined by the human brain. You can't comprehend the infinite, which is why these characteristics seem limiting to you. The fact that we can't comprehend God or attempt to define him is one thing that a belief in God automatically includes.

no no no, you've got me mixed up, i was saying stuff about god being limited because i was trying to point out how impossible it was. so we're actually arguing the same point.

god creating christ means god made a conscious decision. therefore it would mean god is something, a thing, an entity, measurable, characterizable, atributable. god would be comprehendable if he was an entity, im not saying the human mind could comprehend god, im just saying that if god was an entity he would be a comprehendable thing. i don't beleive this.

[9cyclops9]

I think we mean the same thing, or close to it, but we come to that conclusion by different ways. My point is that God, even though he made a "decision" by our definition, is not measurable. It isn't as if he decided one day that he would send Christ to Earth. He knew that day would come. He always knew it, and by always, I mean infinitely. But it was not a decision to put Him here. He didn't have to contemplate it, because time is nothing for God. It has absolutely no meaning. I'm going to borrow an illustration from Kurt Vonnegut. We see time as a single pebble at a time on a single mountain at a time. God views time as an entire mountain range. There are no moments in time for God, except for the fact that he has the ability to see time the way we do also. But he doesn't see the mountain range as you might see in a picture. He sees every pebble, every grain of sand, every electron in this entire mountain range all at once, and comprehends it all at once, without having to comprehend. So what I'm saying is that God doesn't have to think about what happens. He didn't make a decision to put Christ on Earth. It was something that he infinitely knew that he was going to do, beyond any human comprehension of infinite.

[iwant8inches]

Well in your post you are illustrating science as this is how it as and it's thoroughness at explaining things in entirty. This is a falsehood. Science unlike other things is based on theories that appear to be relevant, and have some factual standing. Such a thing like evolution still remains a theory, but is taught as fact. For you to say that religion is for the unintelligent and uninformed masses is quite ludicrous. The first church was not founded on coercing people into belief or killing them for their unbelief, it was about forming a lasting relationship with Jesus Christ and a true transition into righteousness. If you look at this with a clear eye you will see that it is our desire to explain our world and to understand it better that further reveals the creator, things such as rainbows, gravity, and DNA all in different ways reveal a creator to us. There are so many things like DNA or retinal patterns that science can not explain how they grew to be unique, that is where faith comes in. It's not simply following along with what some minister says, we can read the word for ourselves and come to understand it or to disbelieve it. That's the only choice we are left with. No since in quarreling over it's validity, the new testament was written between A.D. 31-60, so it is indeed accurate, and the old testament translations have over 25,000 full manuscripts in original Hebrew and Latin editions that it is shown to be accurate as well. We all stand in judgement at the day of reckoning, Christ died and rose again on the third day and he is the only way to eternal life.

I said science offers a defined answer and I also said it is come by through trial and error or if you want me to say it through the scientific process. I think you misinterpreted what I meant by the more "informed" taking advantage of the lesser intellegent people. Those with power and those who will listen to what ever those people with power say to them. That's what I meant. I'm not calling everyone who is religous uninformed or unintelligent. You can say it's ludicrous too. It's fine because it would be if it were said but it wasn't. But, it's true that there are so many things we wouldn't know about without science whereas we would have just went on believing whatever was believed without proving or disproving such beliefs. That's what I was indicating about the ignorance we ALL have. As time went on and our need to understand the world we live in was better understood by means of science and some of our ignorance went away. Now don't come back with this well the world's not exactly this or that with science because people still do terrible terrible things with it. Yes, and that is always going to be the case. Hopefully, there is a day of reckoning. It'll be dealt with then, but until then we can continue using that free will we were given and do what we may while we can. It's always up to the individual to decide what path they will choose. I like to walk inbetween the fork in the road. Can't say it's anymore or any less good than the other two paths, but hey how would I know in any case? You can be a man of faith and of science. I just look more at what makes more sense to me rather than believing all of something in a form of literature because some of the things inside give me comfort. And I'm talking about ME not someone in general. I just don't see what makes it wrong for two people to have sex before they are married. It's of course okay to think that for yourself, but this is something that has been for the longest time an idea brought on by the church. Doesn't matter what form of Christianity it is, in one form or another we have somehow come to think of sex as a naughty thing like it's not natural. And also, I'm not one of those I hope science one day disproves the bible or any other religion. I believe in one God. I WANT there to be a God because I don't want this to be it. If this is all we get to see is this world that makes hardly any sense when you look at our history and life and death and the parallels that are there and the ones we haven't found yet...sigh That would make no sense at all if there wasn't a higher being out there somewhere. What was the point of all this then? If the universe is going to end at some point then what well, man just thinking it about makes my heart light and the area around it heavy. It's unfathomable to understand what it is to be dead if that is even correct to say. If you are dead how can you Be anything? For some reason even though I was always in church up till the end of middle school I always thought death, not the act of physically dying, was like what it was before you were born. You're nothing. You didn't exist and so there is no you, no pain, no suffering, nothing and more importantly no thoughts. Notta. I hope that's not the case. I'd rather burn in hell or something worse than that. See, I just like the idea that people have the ability to find out answers the way science does it. I'd rather have the world go on till the very end trying to find in the answers they seek rather than just believing something. That is me though. No arguing about the goodness or intelligence of people who believe in Jesus Christ or any other relgion. I think a lot more is understood with science, but I think a lot of people find a reason to go on living and doing what they do with their beliefs. The two compliment each other when given the chance. There are some things I don't believe science has gotten right and there are some things I disagree with religions on. But what it comes down to is people and what they do with the two.

[millionman]

I have to point out something in your post, though and I'm not attacking you personally. There is something that has really bothered me that seems to be held by more than a few men here. The church can say whatever it wants, and that's fine, but once they step outside of God's word or go along with anything that is contrary to the word then it is not of Him any longer, and this is the case with many of our churches, and today's "Christians" are simply playing a game. In fact some people sasy the worst thing a church can do is have a homo-sexual minister or a woman, but God's Word says it is not ordained for the church to be established in a pastor-leity relationship, as the pastor/preacher is superior or more important in the spiritual chain than the believers in the church. The first church resembled nothing like the church is today, it was a brotherhood and the Spirit of the Lord was with them, and they revolutionized the world, but now His spirit does not reside in many of our established western churches.

Another thing I would like to point out is specifically that sex before marriage is a scriptural truth, it's not made up and it's not something to supress our sexual desires. If you've ever read the song of songs, also known as the song of solomon God expresses much joy over the two lovers, and He rejoices in them. God wants us to enjoy our sexual relationships, but only in the confines of a loving, protective, comitted relationship, and the only relationship acceptable to Him by His Word which is the Law is marriage. Honestly, don't accept my word for it, open the word and read it, I've seen so many people throughout the last few months dispute the validity of Christ but have never read the word, and have no reason to dispute it but for the church. The church is man made and man led, and as men we are fallen creatures and our flesh is a tremendous obstacle to serving the Lord and there are those who mislead their sheep, and will one day come to judgement for it. So read it for yourself, don't take mine or anyone else's word for it.

[ladylove]

Respect her morals and values. It's the best thing you can do for her. It's not all about sex. There's more to life. :)

It's not about a book, it's about her morals and her values. She is not ignorant, actually she is making an intelligent decision.
I agree. You all might have to break up, or get married.

[iwant8inches]

I have to point out something in your post, though and I'm not attacking you personally. There is something that has really bothered me that seems to be held by more than a few men here. The church can say whatever it wants, and that's fine, but once they step outside of God's word or go along with anything that is contrary to the word then it is not of Him any longer, and this is the case with many of our churches, and today's "Christians" are simply playing a game. In fact some people sasy the worst thing a church can do is have a homo-sexual minister or a woman, but God's Word says it is not ordained for the church to be established in a pastor-leity relationship, as the pastor/preacher is superior or more important in the spiritual chain than the believers in the church. The first church resembled nothing like the church is today, it was a brotherhood and the Spirit of the Lord was with them, and they revolutionized the world, but now His spirit does not reside in many of our established western churches.

Another thing I would like to point out is specifically that sex before marriage is a scriptural truth, it's not made up and it's not something to supress our sexual desires. If you've ever read the song of songs, also known as the song of solomon God expresses much joy over the two lovers, and He rejoices in them. God wants us to enjoy our sexual relationships, but only in the confines of a loving, protective, comitted relationship, and the only relationship acceptable to Him by His Word which is the Law is marriage. Honestly, don't accept my word for it, open the word and read it, I've seen so many people throughout the last few months dispute the validity of Christ but have never read the word, and have no reason to dispute it but for the church. The church is man made and man led, and as men we are fallen creatures and our flesh is a tremendous obstacle to serving the Lord and there are those who mislead their sheep, and will one day come to judgement for it. So read it for yourself, don't take mine or anyone else's word for it.

Well, I agree with you about it being people and it becoming a game to merit argument for another person's own beliefs. (not Gods) but let's pretend for a minute that people had their own beliefs and desires and such well before Christianity. His word was not known to people before a certain time regardless of what certain people do believe. Such as that the world is about 6 thousand years old. It just simply isn't. I'll embrace anyone and their beliefs but won't believe BS. I never question why things happen nor do do I ever say that it was supposed to happen in the sense that it is what should have happened because there is a plan for us all. Yeah there is a plan for us all but it's drawn out in the decisions that we made on our own which is unfortunately dictated all too often by numerous outside conflicting and sanctimoniuous sources. And that belief in the plan for us all and fate or destiny or whatever people want to call it is contradicted when factoring in free will which is something all of us were supposed to have been given. Anything that happens happened because of cause and effect which sets forth a chain of feelings, thoughts, and actions. I don't question the validity of Christ. I'm Catholic and believe in God, but I do not believe in some of the principles or beliefs set forth for me by that sect of Christianity. There are lots of people out there taking too much of what the Church wants and believing it is what God wants. The problem with that is there becomes a massive amount of people preaching the same things and the church becomes more important than what God wants. The literature in religion is wonderful to an extent. It does take interpretation and soul searching, but like I said plenty of what is written was written because it was always in us and we've always felt or behaved in a certain way. This is before Christianity even before some of the older dead beliefs. These text can either be looked at as a guide or suggested reflection of the human condition. People control people all the time and it is no surprise to me if and when people use even God or a higher being than themselves to manipulate and or control thought. I'm talking historically not now so much. I believe in a higher power than myself as I believe I will know absolute nothing until I am not of this world any longer. Like I began, I have my own questions that I feel are answered only in a reflected form in which I find deep inside myself and I find that in this reflected form I cannot find all the answers through my faith.

[Pharaoh]

You all might have to break up, or get married.

that's what it comes down to.

[GOMER_PYLE]

Not trying to preach here but I can't see why some of you guys don't believe in God. I mean seriously, what have you got to lose? Don't get me wrong, I am a Christian and I believe that God sent his son Jesus Christ to die so that I can go to Heaven. So, if for some reason this is a lie (I obviously don't think it is) then I've got nothing to lose when I die and I'll just be dead. Period. But if what I and a lot of other people believe IS true, then those who reject God and his son Jesus will spend eternity in Hell when they die. I'm just trying to look at it from a logical perspective. You know you're going to die, why not just believe it just in case? At least it'll give you something to hope for and look forward to.

[millionman]

The problem is inherent in the world. People who would seem to be educated really want everything to be explainable so that they can point to it and say yes it all makes sense. Faith does not make sense to those who seek only evidential proof of existence. Remember that Christ performed miracles in front of thousands of people several times, but yet there were those who saw this and had no faith, because they felt they were deceived by the reality they had witnessed. Today we live in a Godless country, people have removed God from every aspect of public life, because it was "offensive", what's most offensive about this thought is that fact that people would be abwhored at someone showing faith and living as examples to the existence and compassion of a Resurrected Christ. The struggle for me is to listen to people with no faith attack those who have faith, and the people without faith no more than those who claim it. The believers need to know what and why they believe and to walk faithfully, to not be hidden in the shadows for fear of judgement from men. They should step out into the Light and into the Lord's protection. I can handle rejection from men, it's this sound that scares me most "Depart from me I never knew you", eternal separation from God is the most horriffic event I can imagine, and scripture makes a vivid account of it, it's worse than any "Hell" we might imagine in reality.

[penguinsfan]

Not trying to preach here but I can't see why some of you guys don't believe in God. I mean seriously, what have you got to lose? Don't get me wrong, I am a Christian and I believe that God sent his son Jesus Christ to die so that I can go to Heaven. So, if for some reason this is a lie (I obviously don't think it is) then I've got nothing to lose when I die and I'll just be dead. Period. But if what I and a lot of other people believe IS true, then those who reject God and his son Jesus will spend eternity in Hell when they die. I'm just trying to look at it from a logical perspective. You know you're going to die, why not just believe it just in case? At least it'll give you something to hope for and look forward to.

I could write a lengthy book on this matter, but I'll give you the extremely condensed version, as you might find it interesting. It's not so much of an issue of I want my total independence or freedom to live my life completely as I choose. Being a person that believes in God, I could be willing to accept some guidelines and principles in my lifestyle in order to serve Him. However, at this point, I do not ever think anything about how my actions are viewed by God. I live my life as I choose to live it, although I have a much stronger moral code than a large number of people that waste their time in church every Sunday morning (not to suggest that people waste their time by church, but that churches are full of people that are living a double-life and not truly devout).

I am a disappointed, discontent, distaught, miserable, and bitter individual and I pretty much always have been. I thought that Christianity would feel this void in my life, but it really never did. I still felt completely ostracized by those that claimed to be fellow Christians. I felt as if I had no one, nothing, in my life. Mankind continually disappointed me. Eventually, I came to accept the fact that non-Christians generally accepted me more as a Christian than my own Christian crowd did. I still felt completely out of place in this world.

I really lack one thing that is essential to Christianity: love for my fellow man. If I were a Christian, I would have a hard time proclaiming the gospel to others. To be frank, I really don't like and don't care about my fellow man. I find most people to be complete assholes and I find most Christians to be the worst of them. That has been a huge disappointment to me. I think where I fell away from God (I don't believe in the doctrine of eternal security--though I would be saved if it were to be true) is when I began to feel confusion and somewhat angry at where things went wrong. Why did I for years and years have a troubled life, but with a relationship with God, and nothing ever got better--only worse? I do not have the strength of Job. He was a better man than I. I cannot fake joy and peace in my heart where none exists. I could not bear any longer to wonder why things were the way they were. I have not prayed in years. If everyone I cared about were suddenly hanging onto their lives by a thread, I would not resume prayer. I will not go through the mental anguish of feeling like my voice goes unheard and feeling unloved (though scripture says I am loved). Strangely enough, though I am still very much disturbed, I am closer to peace than I have ever been. My existence is a simple one. I never even think to look up and ask "why?". I simply wake up each morning, go to work, come home. etc. Someday I'll die and I, right now, assume that I would be facing an eternity in hell. Though that is not easy for me to accept and deal with, it is something that I can sort of understand. I'll never understand why I could not find any trace of peace in my life and why I should suffer damnation as a conseqence, at least the process is laid out before me.

This has been the two minute version of what would really take days to convey in an adequate manner.

[GOMER_PYLE]

I'm sorry that things have not turned out well for you. I'd like to say I understand but I really can't because my hardships in life have been few. I do feel that I am more accepted by my neutral or non-Christian friends also. I have a bitter attitude toward my fellow man and a pretty bitter attitude toward some of the "devout" Christians in my church. I have stopped attending church because of those people. They think that because I want to drink a beer and go two-stepping every now and then that I'm a bad person. I believe it is people like that that drive people away from Christianity. I'm still a Christian but I refuse to treat people like they do.

[penguinsfan]

I have stopped attending church because of those people. They think that because I want to drink a beer and go two-stepping every now and then that I'm a bad person. I believe it is people like that that drive people away from Christianity. I'm still a Christian but I refuse to treat people like they do.

Yeah, that is not all of what I meant. Even it seems as though people that were friends and did accept me never really understood me and TRULY accepted me. I still felt outcast.

So many believes advocated by so many churches have no solid Biblical basis. That does not mean that might not be good advice, but I cannot see them proclaiming them as "sinful". My parents raised me in a Wesleyan domination. Their church forbids drinking alcohol...period...they believe in no drinking whatsoever. I was never able to confirm it, but supposedly John Wesley was himself a homebrewer of beer, according to a friend I know that got a M.A. in theology. The puritans were also supposed to be brewers. Understandably, the church has consistently condemned alcohol abuse, but this idea that social drinking and, perhaps, even the occasional tying one on is sinful is an idea that stems from the temperance movement of the mid-1800s. With the chaos and disillusionment around the time of the Civil War, alcohol abuse became more prevalent and drew opposition from some in the religious community.

Now, I have no problem with a clergyman saying alcohol abuse is destructive to the family and against the teachings of God. I have no problem with that same clergyman giving a personal recommendation of avoiding drinking altogether, but that is a whole world different than preaching that the occasional drinker is damned to the same consequences as murderers and adulterers. That is wild speculation, at best. An old roommate that intends to become a minister in the near future told me he agreed with this historical and cultural perspective, but said I might be a "bad testimony" to others if I were to drink, dance, etc. I told him that I'm only one man and I don't have the influence, nor the responsibility, to undo the church's mistakes.

I didn't mean to get sidetracked, but I found your comments interesting, as someone that would drink on occasion, even during my years of religious devotion.