do you believe in God?

[NeXus]

I am a very real person. I dont believe in horoscopes, bad or good luck, or fate. But when it comes to religion I become even more skeptical. But I do beliveve in a supreme being whether it be God or whatever.

The older I become and the more that we learn as a human race, I am finding all kinds evidence that religion is bullspit. The evolution theory goes against the Bible and religion. And I think that is more probable, that through millions of years of evolution we became what we are as opposed to the world and humans created in seven days at the hand of God.

i am in no way anti-god or anti-semitist or anti-jesus. After all who is a better role model than Jesus? But lately i have been asking myself some really hard questions. And i feel like i have been lied to as a child. When i was 6, i didn't mind beliveing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny only to find out that it was make believe. But they never told me that religon might be fairy tale.

Somebody post and help me with some soul-searching.....what do you believe in?

[Gardenier90]

Yes I believe in god.

[Gardenier90]

.

[doublelongdaddy]

Blessed is he who has not seen but still believes....

[ItsElectric]

I believe that aliens are watching us. Kinda like we're their ant farm.

-ItsElectric

[ApostleInTriumph]

I don't.
Everything around us can be explained on the basis of mechanics, mathematics and those which are a little beyond these classical theories are almost fully explained by quantum mechanics. Evolution is no miracle. Genetic algorithms do the same thing. Only the selection criteria are governed by survival in the real wworld while in computer simulations the human intervenes with fitness tests for each mutation/reproduction.
Life and the origin of the universe however are beyond the capacity of contemporary science. However planets, stars, evolution were considered act of God in the last century and now it's within our grasp.
I strongly believe in aliens though (just by sheer statistics of probability of finding life elsewhere in the universe) ;)

[German Stallion]

Evolution is an impossibility. Pure and simple, there is absolutely no merit, evidence or possibility of evolution. If you have been lied to, it is about evolution. As far as God is concerned, certainly there is God. Not gods. Our whole universe points to a creator, not happenstance or chance. Chance is out, God is in. As far as religion, now that is another story. Religion, traditions and systems are man made. The bible account of creation is just that, an account. Not a story, not a made up system, just records. The bible is history, HIS story, Gods story of mankind. No inconsistency, no hiding facts. The fact that the bible tells us all of mans failings as well as success, give it credibility. Glad to have this discussion. GS

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by German Stallion
there is absolutely no merit, evidence or possibility of evolution. Other than the vast worldwide fossil record.

I have several 350 million year old fossils sitting on my desk here in front of me. They are seashell like critters. My brother found them in northern Iowa. He's a fossil collector. Back then our area (Minnesota etc) was a shallow sea.

His friend found a T-Rex in South Dakota.

The evidence for evolution is everywhere. We even understand the DNA mechanism for coding morphological characteristics (shapes) of animals and how that coding can change across generations based on chance mutation and natural selection.

The Bible, on the other hand, was some ancient goat herders' attempts to explain what they didn't yet have the science to understand. It is little better than a child's rendition.

Oh, I'm an atheist, getting back to the original question.

[dyslexic_smile]

Alrighty, personally I do not think there is an almighty God, or any other gods for that matter. Granted, one may exist, but I could really care less. I know I have this life, and if I have another one after I die (which I really doubt), then so be it.

I mean, seriously, why are human beings the only creatures on Earth to be judged on the lives they live? Is it due only to the fact that we have to pay for the "mistakes" that were made by two people way back when?

Wait a second, Adam and Eve were created not knowing right from wrong, so how could such a harsh punishment be deserved for them? And why the hell do we all have to pay for it? I mean, I recall reading in the Bible that each man pays for his own sins, not for anybody elses, so why do we all get shafted for that?

Oh, sorry there, started going off on a rant...

Anyways, I don't see us as "special" because we supposedly have this thing called a "soul". The way I see it, I am an animal that lives and dies, end of story. I mean, why try to complicate matters to explain the fact that we are so "special" and evolved? I don't think there is a soul, but instead that the way we act is all due to our brains. I just know that man may be evolved, but he is still an animal, plain and simple.

Personally, I am fairly confident that evolution explains everything pretty well. If you think about it, evolution can all be derived from the repeating of algorithmic processes over and over and over again. Algorithms are processes that require no thought, and therefore don't need any kind of "superior" intervention. So basically, through algorithmic processes, something simple can make something complex. Yeah, it's still kind of hard to explain the "but how do you get somethng from nothing" phenomenon, but when it comes down to it, you reach the same problem when you try to explain God. Who created God? Maybe it was some other god, who was created by some other god? That can go on forever and ever.

So yes, I'm ranting again, but will continue with my train of thought...

Anyways, I think if you are to choose a God to believe in, you should believe in one that you are sure exists and who you can honor and respect. I mean, for all intents and purposes, I think I suit myself just fine as a god because there is no debate of my existence, and because I respect myself and what I represent. Anyways, I can't say the same for the popular God. I think he's a dickhead. He doesn't represent much of anything I look for in a human companion, and therefore, I see no need to respect Him. I mean, he loves me, yet he will be happy to see me fry if I don't believe in Him or if I betray Him. Thanks Dad, that's nice of you, and it's good see you need to have ego-driven power trips. And You also need prayer to fuller fulfill Your ego. Thanks Dickhead.

Anyways...

If there really is a God, I would like to think he's just like a scientist looking down at a slide through a microscope, observing all that is going on, rather than the popular notion of what God is.

And I also think that man invented God to explain what he didn't understand. And that was just fine and dandy back then. I think at some point the story got switched around and religion was born. Oh well, people can believe in what they want, but I believe in the absolute that is me, and in the flesh and blood of man, not in some guy in the sky that may or may not exist.

Anyways, sorry I went on forever, but it's my nature. :)

[German Stallion]

Hi Bob.....Fossil records, so called, are based on predetermined criteria....namely that they are millions of years old. The theory that things happen like they have for millions of years without a glitch does not wash. In fact, you can't have a fossil unless something catastrophic happened. Fossils are evidence of things not happening in the norm. So, that fossil from Iowa is evidence of something happening in that sea that once was in Iowa. But what caused it to become a fossil. If it died today, it would not become a fossil unless there was a catastrophe. And, evolution is predicated on something that was nothing becoming something and evolving over millions of years. Millions of years won't wash in our present rate of existence. The sun won't allow for millions of years, it is burning out at a rate that would not allow it to have been that far back. Proof again that the very balance of things in this earth are held in balance by a creator. Fossil records prove the existence of the whole realm of creatures existing together not separate. I live in a very well known fossil area. Interestingly the fossil record shows 90 million year old fossils from one period of so called time, being above some of 120 million year old so called...and it gets worse, things that didn't exist together in evolution are all being found together. Isn't that a hoot. No, guys, you can read all you want and listen to all the gibberish the evolutions throw at you and you con't have a leg to stand on...oh, and you have legs, hmmm, not fins...because you are made that way. You never had fins. There is no, absolutely no, evidence for the cross over and the missing link. Read men, read and weap at what you find. The evolution tries to prove his "theory" because he does not want to give accountability to his creator.

And, for the so called idea of God today. I weary too of the "religionists" view of God.

Now one more thing....whoever told you that the Bible was some sheep herders rendition or whatever you called it, is stupid. The bible is without a doubt one of the most accurate and attested truths of our day. When it speaks, whatever it speaks about it is accurate. You could not reproduce it if you tried.

WE have all over the years been brainwashed to believe in Evolution and not in a creator. Well, if there was any facts, we could accept it, but there are none. Scientists by the hundreds and thousands are turning from evolution to creation.

A man convinced against his will is of the same mind still. If you really want to know, and have an open mind, there is evidence to prove that creation is truth. However if you don't then no amount of my discussion of the subject will change your mind. I do agree and take what is being said about God as valid. We have a wrong concept of God and our concept is that He is against us, when that is not at all true. I must go back to answer another message and continue this discussion. GS

[German Stallion]

Hello to you dyslexic_smile....I don't take any arguement with you, but I do think that your concept of God is warped. I agree that the popular concept of God is in error. It is not hard to answer you questions....Adam and Eve for instance were created but not with out a concept of right and wrong. They were given a choice and choices involve knowing right and wrong. We do reap what we sow and we reap according to what we decide. The result of what we do is not in anyway Gods fault. There are natural results of natural actions. If you plant corn, don't get mad at God when you get corn. If you plant something you will get in like kind. Sowing kindness reaps kindness and that is the natural order of things.

As far as frying....and being forced to love or hate God. When you know the true God and who He is and his great love, then your concept of Him changes and your concept of man changes too. This is not a forum to make us change our mind or "convert" to one position or another, but I am glad to at least say a few words in support of really knowing the true God and not some man made concept or religious concept that many have of God. I respect each of your views and while I might not agree, I would like to challenge you to view the other side of the coin you are showing. Thanks for listening. GS

[goodbutnotgreat]

I promised myself I wouldn't post for a while so I wouldn't get dostracted from my routine, but I couldn't help chiming in . . .

Being raised Jewish it always freaked me out when I was little that all the Christian kids around believed in a religion that essentially said I was wicked in some way for not accepting Christ, which led me to wonder what they they thought of the other 5 billion or so people walking around the planet that aren't Christians . . .

So I stopped believing in any kind of religion a long time ago. All religious belief is a construct of society, and there have been thousands and thousands of religions, and there continues to be as well. It was our evolved ability to entertain abstract thought that got us religion, and it is so deeply rooted in the fundemental human perspective that I would say it will be maybe 1000's of years, if ever, that it is no longer viewed as being absolutely necessary to some degree by a general populace.

That being said, religion is worth studying in order to understand the modern world. It's influence is so vast and ingrained that without a knowledge and appreciation of the methods of religious though I feel no education is whole. Religion served as the catylist that forged at least western civilzation and was essentially the cause and benefactor of all knowledge and human pursuits for many years. It's had to let go in a very begrudging fashion to science and reasoning over the years (making a claim that was somehow conflictory with whatever the catholic church thought that decade not a wise move until the last few centuries.)

Anyway, I believe that a perspective free from religious dogma is infinately more appealing. The idea of a universe I can't understand but have the human potential to try and reason out sounds a lot better then being indoctrinated into a system of belief that only has credibility in that a lot of people swear it's true. That's not to say any religion is wrong, hey, somebody could well be right. And thats good news for them and shitty news for the thousands of other religions who missed the bus. I don't like the idea of a god or gods holding sway over me, judging me on some system of morality or conduct that sounds an awful lot like it was made up by early civilizations trying to put together some rules for society. I don't fear a god, nor do I think I'll be meeting one, or anybody else for that matter, after I die.

If you take this perspective, then you can do the most wonderful thing . . . make all your own decisions. Having a mind is the most incredible and amazing opportunity (edges out having a penis ever so slightly) . . . free from religious constraint or anything else of that nature, you are an independent mind, you are a free person, you can think and learn and change as you see fit, and fear plays no role for you. Understading the world through rationality and reasoning is an inate ability, and when you hand your life over to a gigantic cult of belief, then you forfeit your true potential. Maybe it is just as much of a leap of faith to believe in no religion some of you might say . . . and that is absolutely correct. But when I reject religion, I believe in something else, myself, and that is the only thing in my life that I will ever be able to say with total assurance is real. Our old friend Decartes said "Cogito Ergo Sum" - "I think Therefore I am" The clergy were not happy with him, I wonder why . . .

[MightyBigWeiner]

i dont believe in god, religion or fate.

i do however believe in an afterlife

[oopapercutoo]

I'm not at liberty to say whether I do or don't believe. I'm still questioning, as I believe everyone should always be questioning.

However, I will say this...there is no such thing as fate. The idea that someone/something else is control of MY life doesn't sit too well with me. I refuse to believe that there is some predetermined pathway that's already been paved for me in which all of the choices I'm faced with have already been decided well in advance. If that's the case, than what joy is there to derive out of living a life that isn't truly yours?

[MightyBigWeiner]

Originally posted by German Stallion
Hi Bob.....Fossil records, so called, are based on predetermined criteria....namely that they are millions of years old. The theory that things happen like they have for millions of years without a glitch does not wash. In fact, you can't have a fossil unless something catastrophic happened. Fossils are evidence of things not happening in the norm. So, that fossil from Iowa is evidence of something happening in that sea that once was in Iowa. But what caused it to become a fossil. If it died today, it would not become a fossil unless there was a catastrophe. And, evolution is predicated on something that was nothing becoming something and evolving over millions of years. Millions of years won't wash in our present rate of existence. The sun won't allow for millions of years, it is burning out at a rate that would not allow it to have been that far back. Proof again that the very balance of things in this earth are held in balance by a creator. Fossil records prove the existence of the whole realm of creatures existing together not separate. I live in a very well known fossil area. Interestingly the fossil record shows 90 million year old fossils from one period of so called time, being above some of 120 million year old so called...and it gets worse, things that didn't exist together in evolution are all being found together. Isn't that a hoot. No, guys, you can read all you want and listen to all the gibberish the evolutions throw at you and you con't have a leg to stand on...oh, and you have legs, hmmm, not fins...because you are made that way. You never had fins. There is no, absolutely no, evidence for the cross over and the missing link. Read men, read and weap at what you find. The evolution tries to prove his "theory" because he does not want to give accountability to his creator.

And, for the so called idea of God today. I weary too of the "religionists" view of God.

Now one more thing....whoever told you that the Bible was some sheep herders rendition or whatever you called it, is stupid. The bible is without a doubt one of the most accurate and attested truths of our day. When it speaks, whatever it speaks about it is accurate. You could not reproduce it if you tried.

WE have all over the years been brainwashed to believe in Evolution and not in a creator. Well, if there was any facts, we could accept it, but there are none. Scientists by the hundreds and thousands are turning from evolution to creation.

A man convinced against his will is of the same mind still. If you really want to know, and have an open mind, there is evidence to prove that creation is truth. However if you don't then no amount of my discussion of the subject will change your mind. I do agree and take what is being said about God as valid. We have a wrong concept of God and our concept is that He is against us, when that is not at all true. I must go back to answer another message and continue this discussion. GS

can you please repeat what you said about fossils? fossils occur because something is out of the norm? what the fuck are you on about? do you even know how fossils are made?

and also, wtf are you talking about with evidence of fins? you do realise that we share an embryonic phase with fish where GILLS are fucking visible on our body? i bet you didn't know that did you?
please, before trying to make an arguement, actually know what you are talking about, because you are making an ass out of yourself talking about things that are completely wrong.

fossilisation is a process where the soft matter of a body decays, and substances fill the bones. then the bones deteriorate leaving behind shapes that look like bones and are accurate representations of what an organism looked like. fossils have SWEET FUCK ALL to do with catastrophes

-MBW
PS: thousands of scientists are joining creationism theory? what the fuck have you been smoking? there is absolutely NO PROOF of creationsm. ZIP, ZILCH. A turd smelling like strawberries is a more likely scenario than some being having waved his hands to make earth. I gotta say it, but you sir, are so full of shit.

[NeXus]

i just want to make point quick before i ask you guys something else. When Chris Columbus sailed to America 200 years ago, everyone except a few seriously believed that the world is flat and that he would fall to ultimate death be falling off the face of the world. When we look back it was only 200 years ago, think about how much the world has developed between slavery, Apache helicopters, going to the moon, and Internet. I bet in the year 2203 people will look back and say wow i cant people believed in that kind of stuff.

but my real question is what would the world be like with no reiligon? I think it would be better because 9/11 would never of happened. Terrorism wound't exits. Al-Qaida would need a new reason to be crazy extremetist. Hitler wouldnt have a reason to blame it on the Jews because Judaism wouldnt exist. Does religion hurt more people than it saves? More people kill in the name of God than for any other reasons.

[dyslexic_smile]

GS,

I have viewed the other side of the coin. I was raised (and confirmed) Catholic, but saw early on that it all appeared like a crock of shit. I read the Bible at more than once in completion (which I doubt more than 1% of xtians can say), and I read contradiction after contradiction. Granted, I think it's not supposed to be interpreted verbatim, but I think it's far and away from some kind of absolute truth. It was written with human hands "guided by God," so just that fact alone means it most likely doesn't contain absolute truth, since man is incapable of such things.

We were born to sin, so instead of turning it into a liability, I say turn it into an advantage. I'm not saying I condone running around killing people at random or anything, but I always treat people how they treat me. As for the whole, "kindness is returned with kindness deal", that isn't always true. Practically everyday I experience things contrary to this, in which people I am nice to end up screwing me over in one form or another simply because they can and because they don't care. And if they don't realize their fault, I won't forgive them, and the person becomes my enemy. I have no respect for assholes, and as such try not to associate with them. And I think if you just try to love everything, then the whole concept of what love is loses its intrinsic value. I love certain things and I hate certain things. Due to this, I believe I am capable of a purer love than those people who claim that they love everyone, their enemies included.

As for the Garden of Eden deal, I find that kind of amusing in and of itself. I mean, God LIES to Adam and Eve saying that they will die if they touch the Tree or eat the apple, yet the Devil tells the truth and says that they will not die, but will only learn right from wrong. I mean, what kind of shit is that? I guess maybe die has some metaphorical meaning there, but I really doubt it.

Now onto the fossil/sun thing...

I must agree with MBW with respect to fossils. Reminds me of a Bill Hicks' comedy bit where he talks about how he talked to a Fundamentalist Christian that said the world was 10,000 or 12,000 years old (I can't remember which). And then Bill said, "well how do you explain dinosaurs?" And the xtain replied that, "fossils were put in place by God to test our faith." And so Bill just mentioned to the audience how he found it disturbing that God was placing fossils all around Earth just to fuck with us and test our faith.

As for the sun burning out, come on now. Stars stay around for billions and billions of years. Well, at least that is what science (via radioactive dating) tells us. Science says that the Sun will burn about 10 million years, and the Earth has only been around for about 2 billion years. So, that's a lot of spare time to play with. Now, science could be completely wrong about this, I admit. But this finding only proves that evolution is plausible, if not a definite.

Evolution itself is an interesting thing, and besides Darwin, I think Daniel Dennett's book, "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" explains it best. I could go on and try to explain why the fish example doesn't hold water, but that'd take me quite a while to type out, and this ramble of mine is getting bad as it is. Oh yeah, and even the Pope said that evolution happens, except that it doesn't affect the human soul. I myself find that very interesting, even if I don't buy into that whole soul bit.

Anyways, I know nothing I can say can change your mind, and that really isn't my goal. I respect your views as I do most anybody elses. As long as you are true to what you believe, then that is most important to me. Nothing I can't stand more than a hypocrite. Anyways, just wanted to state my side...again. I realize I could write forever and this exchange of ideas could go on forever and ever, so I will stop here. It's interesting to hear others' views in any case and I'll always keep an open mind.

- DS

[dyslexic_smile]

NeXus,

I'm glad you brought this up. I too do believe some day in the future, people will look back and wonder how people could believe in God (among other things). Kinda cool just to think about how much things change over time, and how many truths become falsehoods over the centuries.

Onto the religion question...

I can't say for certain that the world would be better without religion. I think to some extent that many people have a need for moral rules, as well as faith, so religon provides that.

Then again, in a lot of ways, I think the world would be nicer without religion. Lex Talionis (the law of the jungle) would prevail, and only the strong (physically/mentally) would survive. I personally think there are way too many people on this planet, and wish there weren't as many of us around. Granted, that would have effects that I wouldn't be able to anticipate, so who knows. Would the technology we have today exist? I don't know, maybe. Would I exist? Probably not. Everything that happens at one point in time affects practically everything else, so it's hard to say if the world would be better without religion.

One thing's for certain, the world would probably be better without the Holocaust or the Inquisition. And I agree that less lameass shit would happen without religion being around.

Also, I know that in the US and many other countries, religion is the foundation of the law systems, so I'm not sure how that'd all play out either. If everything was "eye for an eye," I think things would turn out just fine, but who knows. Society sure wouldn't be the same, that's for certain.

So yeah, my opinion is that the world would be better overall without religion, even if I would never had been born or the like. I doubt there would be mass hysteria and chaos without religion though, as many would speculate. People would just live their lives as they see fit and some kind of equilibrium would be established.

Well, that's my take, even if it seems to kind of go back and forth from one side to the other.

- DS

[German Stallion]

MightyBig....I don't mind answering your questions, but I don't need to be treated like I am stupid. I know where-of I speak. If you don't agree with me, that is your right and privilege, but please refrain from the name calling.

Obviously, I don't need to tell you this, but fossils occur when an animal, fish, snail or whatever is covered and rather than decay and rot or get destroyed, or eaten by predators or scavengers as in natural occurrences, this living creature is covered and sealed so that over time the soft tissues well as the bones etc. are replaced by rock. Most of the time, these living creatures are entombed in the sedimentary layers, often because of a catastrophe or something that caused them to be sealed rather than decay or be destroyed as above. We recently have discovered about three miles from where I live, 26 difference type dinosaurs in a 100 foot radius. Some of these have previously believed not to have lived together, but here they are, all in one spot. Without question something of an un-natural occurrence put them in this place, sealed them up. We live in an area where deep beds of coal are mined. Sometimes a whole tree is "fossilized in the coal bed." The tree is complete, limbs, trunk, branches, leaves etc. It is all, now, totally coal. But, how did this happen. It happened because something caused it to be buried, and pressure was applied and presto? We assume that it took millions of years; but did it?

What have I been reading. Do you really want to know? I doubt it so I won't bore you with the literature that is available presenting the "other side."

Forgive me if I have offended you. I have post graduate work in all these areas but have obviously chosen to view many sides and see a different view than you. GS

[MightyBigWeiner]

ah yes. so you would call a land slide an unatural occurance? a flood is unatural? volcanic eruptions? they certainly aren't out of the norm. thousands of eruptions, land slides and floods occur each year. they just show how fragile the world is. don't know where you are getting at, but your whole fossil arguement is flawed.

also, just to add onto the discussion about why we don't have fins. because mammals are believed to have originated from little possum-like creatures. of course all life originated in the water, but thats where evolution/natural selection comes into place. These small possum creatures have developed into bigger creatures, then monkeys, apes, and finally humans. hence we have that bone in our asses (damn, forgot what its called), that can often give us troubles.
And in regards to your comments of the fins. did you know that horses have small finger like structures in the lower portions of their legs? why would god put that there, especially when some horses can suffer serious movement problems. horses have evolved, and are walking on their middle fingers, which provides a constant speed of movement. you have wild cats (like leopards) who can run a lot faster, but don't have the same stamina. How do you explain neanderthals? Homo hobilis? Homo erectus? Why do these creatures bear such a resemblance to humans yet don't exist anymore? unless this all falls under the concept of "god having placed fossils on earth to test the faith of humans".

-MBW
PS: sorry for having been a bit offensive.

[REDZULU2003]

Short and sweet:
----

I belive summut is out their......we the UNIVERSE were created by the Big Bang......Science cant explain how that started or why???

It started somehow.....space was nuthing once and now life is everywhere.

I belive their is one surpreme being [I sound mental?] out-their..once or maybe he/she/it still exists somewhere else????
I do belive in ghosts and the paranomal...Expericned it my-self.

I aint a religious person....dont go to church but I do reckon that when we and others die we get reincarnated as summut else.
I belive this as theirs always life cummming into the world at some point, animals and humans.

We IMHO are like a Big PC Network getting moved around to do diff' things when process'es are complete.

I also have and still will ask for gods support and my relatives/freinds that have since perished....I belive they are at times still around me.

I may sound like a Lunatic.....thats fair enough...but this is my views.

I am a Protestant [Religion] but this ^^^^^ ABOVE is MY religion...I follow NO CODE.....I take out what I feel is right.

I do belive in making your own life...i.e. it aint mapped out for ya, it can be altred with ease.
But I reckon things DEFF' happen for a reason......WEIRD things and the casual.
I know this will sound sick and harsh but when I hear of some people dieng young I think to-myself well maybe that happened becoz they could be a future killer?????? [okay I aint making sense now....these feelings aint as strong as the others I must admit].

I give you two quick examples of things happening for a reson...like they were W A R N I N G'S.

Months back I was involved in a train crash with the service.
Some guy had been ran over [tramp] turned out he had made a camp on the track [dunno why?] and one of them metal fire things to keep warm.
The train some-how miss saw him and still ran the guy over.
Now the trains wheels at the front in part were of the rails.
The guy was sliced to pieces which I am sorry about.
Now......we had to get certain things done before the accident team came to do checks etc etc.
I had to go under the train and take some pictures of a small fire that had now been well died out.
We always do checks before sum1 goes under the train in a state like this so it dunt fall on them....well we did the test.....it was fine.

I was ready and set to go under the train.
I swair I was just going under it, when I noticed I had forgot my torch to see the area I wanted to expose.
I went back and got my torch..it was a stones throw away.

I than turned and said to my mate I am going in......than a massive bang like nuthing I heard before.
The train had fallen back onto the track.

If I would have gone under I would have been sliced in half by the wheel I would have been under.
Turned out that a 1 in many 100's of 1000 chances that a bolt to a machone that was holding the wheels off the track in level had come out.....why did that happen??? MHO to save me.

Another tale.
I was after a ring for my mother once.
I could not find it anywhere.....the store that had it sold out right on xmas eve [last minute shopping].
I was well pissed off.
I was sat outside sumwhere in the cold, dark and fed-up.
A guy was sat also...looked like a homeless guy or summut really scruffy.

He was like 'Wuts up dog' I told him... His eyes fucking lit up...I was like if your gunna joke with me Ill smash ya up frog eyed bitch.
Anyways he has a carrier-bag with alsorts of probably *Stolen* goods, cd's, games the works.
Turns out he had this VERY JEWLLERY I needed.
I tested it out , it was real....I paid him half the price and gave him my coat...I was delited......I got the present after-all.

Now how lucky is that????? It happened for a reason......things like that dont just happen.

Hope this all makes sense, any questions and the like than fire-away.

cya all.

[C-Guy]

The question is ..How can I NOT believe in God? First let me say that I am not what some call a card carrying christian. I do attend church occasionally and am not ashamed in any way to say that I am proud of my christian heritage. My family always attended church regularly. Yes I believe in God not Gods.

For those of you that know me you know i always have a story and now isn't any different.

I always wanted to be a youth counselor. I always wanted to try to spare others the pain I had endured as a child and in to the ealry teen years. I gave up my summers for 4 years to attend a Bible College that offered the courses I wanted to take to help qualify for the position i wanted. In one of those classes an elderly lady was sitting in the back of the class. The instructer was giving the lesson when all of a sudden the lady started screaming. (The class had just began as usual with prayer) People around her thought she was having a heart attack or something. The instructor went to her to try to be of assistance.
When he reached her she was hysterical with laughter. She could not even speak she was laughing so hard. All she could do was point to the floor. On the floor by her feet were multiple skin cancers that had fallen off of her legs . She had new skin just like a baby where the cancers were just a moment before. I did not read this from a book I was there. It happened.

Another time in the same school at the graduation ceremony for an elective class that I was taking at night a lady was singing without any music. She only had a small microphone and a small amplifier just large enough for that class to be able to hear. About half way thru the song while the lady was singing the instructor stood with a face as ashen as death its self. He yelled ..DO YOU HEAR THAT? From out of no where you could hear 1000s of voices singing as a choir backing up the lady as she sang Amazing Grace. It was an angelic choir sound coming thru the small amp.

The church I attended as a child was about 3 miles from town . Before my time there my grandmother told me of times when people would come like mad men from the town thinking the building was on fire. The smoke was visible miles away. When they would arrive they would find church services going on as normal but outside on the rooftop huge balls of fire would be dancing on the roof. The next day there would never be so much as a smut mark. No fire damage. Fire in the Bible has many times been refered to as the presence of God.

Go ask Smith Wigglesworth if he believed in God. He was an ordinary man from the UK. He was not even able to read or write. His wife became a christian and tried to get him to go to church with her. He refused and would even lock here out of the house if she went. Finally he gave in and went with her. He accepted Christ that night and became one of the greatest preachers to ever walk the face ofthe earth. He was known as the Apostle of Faith. Its a documented fact that he rebuked death and 17 people were brought back to life during his services. Thousands were healed of uncurable diseases like blindness and deafness.

I could go on and on all night and never tell you all the things that i have witnessed that had to be God. Like a man playing a piano in a service . The man gets up and the piano keeps playing the same tune. It was NOT any type of electrical device or gadget. Just a plain upright piano.

How can I not believe in God? I realize by posting this that I am risking being called a lunatic or worse. I don't care. Get Darwin to explain it with his theory. He can't.

The real truth is that its develotion not evolution. Man was created perfect and has devolved into what he is today. America is paying the price today for letting one outspoken woman by the name of Madelin O'hare expell God from school. Its a fact in the records that 30-40 years back the #1 problem is school was chewing gum. #2 was breakin in the line going to the lunchroom. Today its mass murder, rape, teachers literally afraid for their lives. Bombs, Guns you name it we have it. Know God know peace...NO God NO peace.

Sorry guys but you came a little too late to tell me that there is no God.

[GhosT_DoGG]

I believe in God.

Cuz, Gotta believe in something.
To have someone who you think can help you/believe in you.
Keeping you full of hope even in the worst situation.
And when your mad, to blaim him without getting sleecy replies and other shit.

Nobody can explain how the world came to it start. They say big-bang, i dont believe that. Because no matter what you say created the earth you can always say this - "Where did that come from?"
Like in, the big bang created the planets.
And where did the big bang come from? And where did that thing who created the big bang come from.... You see all shit.
Its like we live in "MATRIX" all programmed-up.

This thing i find interesting, how come we speak different languages in the world and not the same all over the place?

//Rob

[NeXus]

i think you guys might have the wrong idea of what the big bang theory actually is. It's very complicated but the basis is that two different dimensions collided together into one three-dimensional universe causing the bang which is what started the beginning of time. like this

----> <-----

-----(@)-----

(((((@)))))) -start of time is the wave that never stops

but im in no way a scientist but im pretty sure thats the premise

I want to ask all the religious people a question who claim they have seen the hand of God a question.
Did you know 24,000 people die every[U] single day in the world because of starvation alone including children? Why would God spend his time in AnyTown, USA when these people dying because they don't have a basic human need. Why dosent God transcend down from heaven and do a real miracle.

When you see a shooting star do you think is a sign from God too? Maybe its a sign that God made Bush the president to fight "evildoers". LOL

People need to know, whether they like it or not, the Bible is wrong and religion is just superstitious nonsense thats been inherited for many centureis by our ancestors. Remember they also thougt the world was flat just two centuries ago.

The Bible is wrong in the first chapter.
Example:"The Earth was made in six days.
Well, truth is that the Earth is an off shoot of the sun that has been changing through natural disasters like earthquakes, volcanos and erosion for millions and millions of years. The only reason there is life here on Earth is because its the only planet we know of so far that even sustain life!

For people who want good philosophical shit that makes you think about this issue go to: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/johnson2.htm#8

[PirateSteve]

Not many atheists in combat. I have seen a lot of men die. Amazing how many card-carrying atheists cry out to God when they realize they are about to die, or pray to him for protection during a firefight.

I also notice most atheists are not homeless or poor. Funny how when you have plenty of stuff, you don't need God. Funny how quickly you would beg him for food if your belly was empty.

This science that proves God does not exist, is it not the same science that says PE is useless and dangerous? I admit that science can explain a whole lot, but human science is still in it's infancy. Many of yesterdays accepted scientific truisms have been discarded in light of new discoveries. Sure, trust in science all you want. You will still cry out to God when the time comes.

If you look deep within your heart, you will know God exists. The most valuable, and life-affirming journey in life is the search for God. His hand and presence can be seen easily by even the most died-in-the-wool skeptics by just observing, really observing, any living thing.

A flower, if watched patiently and intensely from dawn to dark, is a fine example. Science knows every bit of a flowers design and how it works. And yet, to watch one for a day as it opens it's petals to the sun, how it shies away from touch, how it pulses in the rain, the way it smells differently at different times of the day, all of it is so immensely beautiful that one can not help but know it is not just the result of eons of mechanical, heartless evolution just by spending time with it.

Sure you hard core guys can go on bravely denying God, but I have seen the truth. You will recant one day. Spill a little blood, go a few weeks without food, lose everything in the stock market. The day will come. God can wait.

[dyslexic_smile]

PirateSteve,

Alright, I know I won't cry out to God when I'm dying. And I also know that I don't need him for anything. You said that you notice that most atheists are well to do. So I ask you, why is that? Is that because we sit around praying to God asking him to solve all of our problems, or is it because we actually utilize our own abilities to get what we want? Prayer won't get you anywhere, but getting off your ass and doing something certainly will. I used to be stupid and pray, and over the years I realized how pointless it was. I decided to forget about God and instead fix things myself.

Aside...

(Well, another experience that led me away from God was the time some guy toppled over dead of a heart attack during Mass. I mean, seriously what kind of God lets a worshipper die during a service. Oh, I forgot, "The Lord works in mysterious ways," so that's okay if God took his life, even in the middle of Mass. And yeah, "He is in God's hands now," so God was selfish enough to take that man away from his family and friends that loved him, just so He could have the man for Himself. Am I the only person who has realized those two aforementioned phrases are trite and meaningless?)

Ok, end of that little aside...

Anyways, should I be subservient to anything, other than maybe my real Creators, my parents? I don't think so. God has never helped me and never will. That is either because He doesn't exist, or because he's just an uncaring asshole, like the majority of His "children." Oh wait, maybe it's because I don't pray to Him anymore, and he could care less for me. Well good, because I feel the same way about Him.

One more thing, I don't follow your whole flower example. I think I'm more in touch with nature than most people, and I don't see how spending a day with a flower makes me KNOW that God made it. Why does anything beautiful have to be God's work? Why do people say, "Well, it had to be done by God, there is no other way?" Where is YOUR proof? All of the beauty of the flower is due to the fact that structure defines function. It could be made by God or the result of evolution, but the way it functions is indpendent of what made it. I mean, seriously it's good to know God made stinkflowers and other wretched smelling flowers too. He certainly has good taste.

But people say, "God had to make the Earth and people, because it is just so perfect." Well, we never experienced anything else, so how can we say otherwise? This Earth could be an utter shithole compared to what it is now, and everyone would think it is so incredible and amazing, simply because he/she had no basis of comparison. Everything is relative, so why tout anything that is seen as special as the absolute work of some Architect in the sky?

Ok, that is all of my long-winded reply.

- DS, a happy man in an unhappy world

[doublelongdaddy]

Don't make me put on my minister clothes:D

[NeXus]

The Universe
How life started


Around 500 million years ago: amino acids (proteins) + fatty acids (lipids) appears in tidal pools and stagant ponds (dry & hot during day, cold & humid at night).

Moleculs trapped in clay + quartz -> small chains of nucleic acid -> simplified form of DNA

Hydrophilic + Hydrophobic molecules -> clusters -> outside in contact with water, inside protected

=> for the first time, something has an inside and an outside

Some cells use carbohydrates, other use the sun's photons (no need to "eat")

Some cells start to reproduce -> cell division -> geometric explosion

Cells go out of ponds -> DNA cells form a considerable variety of living structures

2 families:
- cells using photo-synthesis (Plants) -> produce oxygen
- cells using oxygen with carbohydrates -> have a nuclei

Cells with nuclei -> intra-cellular communication (between cells)

-> cells have different functions in the same organism (they form a flagella for movement, evacuate waste... )

These functions need coordination: appears in front (and propulsion: in rear)

- organism with several thounsand cells: earliest marine organism (first sponges, little jelly-fish, worms...)

- cells more and more specialized -> neurons and nerve net

- forward-moving animals -> sensory organs in the front -> more ganglions in the head -> brain

=> that's why our brain is in our head, not in our knees

This was the very first life on this planet. And from there is Evolution. Its normal for people be afraid of things that they don't know or understand. I'm not saying I understand it either but I know that Life and the Universe is a complicated issue and cannot be explained by a thing so simple as God made it in 6 six days and made man out of clay.

[dyslexic_smile]

NeXus,

Very nicely put. I don't think we'll ever be able to explain precisely how the Universe began (or everything about the universe for that matter), but think we can explain things back to some definite point of time in the past. And I think it's alright if we don't understand things. I'd rather not understand something (and strive to find the answer), then make up some story about some patriarch in the sky that lovingly fashioned all of us. If I did that, I'd be just as well believing in Santa Claus.

- DS

[doublelongdaddy]

Originally posted by NeXus
Its normal for people be afraid of things that they don't know or understand. I'm not saying I understand it either but I know that Life and the Universe is a complicated issue and cannot be explained by a thing so simple as God made it in 6 six days and made man out of clay.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

(2 Corinthians 11:3)

[C-Guy]

OK I admit there was probably a big bang. Well there had to be one. The earth was empty. God said Let there be...... talk about a bang. A world that had never heard sound and a voice as thunderous as God speaking what wouldn't have become when He spoke.

As for the hungry dying people. What is your evolution theory doing to help them. At least the Christian organizations are constantly trying to raise money to feed them.

When God created man in the garden he would have never wanted for anything had he stayed in that perfect state but, man not GOD decided to do it his way.

As for the man dying in mass. WHAT a priviledge and an honor that must have been for that man or any other man for that matter. To have served God with all hid heart and go to worship and God says hey you're closer to my house than yours. Where is that man now.... spending the day with God. And whether you wanna believe it or not he would NOT come back to this world for a thousand familes just like his.
The man Smith Wigglesworth that i mentioned earlier prayed for his wife who had died. Instantly she sat up alive again . The first words out of her mouth were. Smith what did you do that for?
I am not arguing with you guys just expressing my beliefs as you are entitled to yours. Just be careful cause one of those uncaring assholes as you call them will probaly be the one to decide to stick you in some day.

[dyslexic_smile]

A quick reply this time...

Evolution doesn't care about the starving, dying people. It follows the principle of survival of the strongest/fittest, and might is right. Sure, the Christian groups are helping those people to live, but that isn't helping the evolution of man. The weak are praised and allowed to live, therefore hurting the species. I know that all may sound bad, but that is the way nature works.

As for the guy dying in church, I sure don't see it as an honor. Guess that's the way I see it though.

Oh yeah, and God was the one who deceived man in the Garden, not the Serpent. God said eating the fruit would bring certain death, whereas the Serpent told the truth. See Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3:4-5 for that. (Think I mentioned that in a previous post, but I felt like reiterating it.)

Anyways, that's my thoughts on things.

- DS

[PirateSteve]

OK DS, let me try to sort out the mess I made of my last post. I ask your forgiveness for my not being able to express my thoughts in a particularly coherent manner, as I have a brain injury that sometimes obscures my ability to clearly put in words that which is so clear in my head.

Firstly, you wrote, “I don't see how spending a day with a flower makes me KNOW that God made it.” This is a little like arguing that a chocolate cake is not to your liking before trying it. I stated that you need only spend an entire day with a flower, and you dismissed the idea without trying it. So as far as I can see, you can choose not to try my suggestion, but then have no position to argue it’s ineffectiveness. Spend a day, test my theorem, then we will have a frame of reference to discuss this further - that IS science.

I see in you an anger towards the church. In many of the things you have said I find myself in full agreement. Let me clarify my position a bit for you. I think the Christian church in America in general has completely failed us. Keep in mind the church is an institution, it exists (not unlike the Government) to support itself first. Men with power often seek to expand such, and the church is not exempt from this at all.

Hindus believe that all paths to God are valid. As a Christian heretic, so do I. I am a Buddhist, and a Christian if labels are necessary. But I see much truth in Islam (I particularly find the Sufi branch quite refreshing, and could easily go that way under the right circumstances), and in quite a few of the Eastern traditions. The history of Christianity leaves much to be desired, to be sure. As an example, most Christians accept the Bible as God’s word without question. History shows that it was commissioned by Constantine, not God himself. Jesus never once said, “Write down what I say, collect the works, and make a holy book.” God never told Peter to do so either.

Constantine, however, decided that the best way to consolidate a broken Roman Empire and make it great once more was to declare one state religion. Constantine, a nonbeliever, created the Catholic Church. It was Constantine who ordered that the fragments of stories about Christ be collected, sifted through, and “canonized” into a “Word of God”. Worked out nicely for him.

So if I readily admit that the Word of God is a fabrication of a secular man (who had an agenda of his own), how can I defend God? Because God is not a book. A book is made of dead paper, has no life, and is in every way a great example of a creation of man. We men make great things, but none of our creations live. The church is a creation of man. The Catholic Church was originally intended as a method of control, as were most religious (and non-religious) institutions.

Then came the great Christian reformers, Luther leading the way. (Good movie about him out now, by the way). Luther wanted each man to be able to find God himself, without being told who and what he was by the all knowing (and very corrupt at the time) church. A little of that “find it for yourself” exists to this day in Protestantism, though to be sure, but only if it is contained in Constantine’s bible - anything beyond that is heresy.

So do I believe the Christian “Bible” to be wrong? Is it full of lies? No, I find in it great truths, though perhaps not the whole truth. There are a great many texts that exist still today that earlier followers of Christ read and enjoyed. Some of them are not as good at encouraging a populous to pay taxes to the government and tithes to the church. Others give very interesting spins to contemporary Christian thought. I particularly like the Gospel of Thomas, where Jesus tells us God is not found in a building but out in nature. Ahh, but I digress.

What is this diatribe about? I see Christianity, and Islam, and other organized religions much as the ancient Chinese saw all religion - as a finger pointing to the moon. One can find the moon on his own, but when one is having little success or is unsure which light in the sky is really the moon, it is helpful if a friend points it out for him. Once the moon is seen and recognized, the finger no longer is necessary - one can view the moon from that evening on directly, by himself. Today’s Catholic church would have you believe that the moon is only viewable through their finger. And the Protestants that you must know every inch of the finger, each intricacy, in order to truly see the moon.

Those in the east would tell you that if you look within yourself deeply, the moon will be apparent. I agree with them to a point, as I meditate hours every day and God is so apparent in the silence that it is humorous to me to speak with those who do not believe. What I was trying to say earlier DS, is that you don’t need any of that to know God. I gave a simple challenge - watch a flower for an entire day and write me back telling me how God does not exist. Prove my theorem wrong using your own, much touted, scientific method.

You also wrote, “Prayer won't get you anywhere, but getting off your ass and doing something certainly will”. I agree almost completely with your assessment here too. Today, in America, Christians think prayer is something you do TO God. A one way path of communication whereby you ask for something, and if it suits God, you get it. What a crock. God is not a crutch, nor does he exist to manifest our desires. This is not taught anywhere in the Christian bible. Yet, somehow, the church has encouraged such meaningless blabbering. Christ teaches it is a private communication with God. Christ didn’t pray for God to do things for him, he “got off his ass” and did it himself, much like you. (And like you, he didn’t think much of organized religion either - did you know you had so much in common?)

Christ gave us an example of communication - he spent 40 days alone with God. Not many Christians have or would ever try such a thing (I have, several times, and I highly recommend it by the way). No wonder Prayer is so easily dismissed - to do it right requires a lot of time and effort! So the church teaches you some meaningless method that suits it’s needs. I have never seen a Christian church, ever, teach you how to listen during prayer for a response. They want you to ask for “things” and not wait for an answer, it keeps you coming back and “donating” money! You came to the correct conclusion, and I wholeheartedly support your wise decision.

I am sorry that you saw and were disturbed by a man, most likely an acquaintance of yours, perhaps even a good friend, pass in church. Death is not an easy thing to understand, and most spend more time running away from it than studying it. I have an unfortunate amount of experience with death, and so have learned a bit. I have held many dyeing men in my arms and watched the spark of life leave them. I myself have been flat-lined twice. What I can assure you is that since we all have to die sometime, there is no better death than one that comes upon you when you are doing something you love, and are surrounded by people you love. If the man that died found comfort in Church, if he enjoyed his time there, then he had a good death.

Both times I died, I left my body and could observe what was around me. In both cases it was a miserable place, and I felt no comfort watching strangers beat on my body or cut it open. Noise and pandemonium, wrapped up in spattered blood. I know that experience would have been much more comforting if just one person I loved was present. I imagine (in what is left of my mind) that man who died in your church surrounded by love and caring friends. Frankly, I envy his death. I see the time and place of his passing as a great gift. Someday, I think you will too. In the mean time, I am sorry it caused you so much distress.

Science is trying hard to explain the experiences of those, who like me, died and returned. What is the white light, why are we drawn to it, how are we aware of what is happening in the room, or even outside it? How can we describe things we could not possibly have seen around us so accurately and in such detail? So far, not much from those learned scholars. Those of us that have been there, though, we get it.

I believe the reason the overwhelming majority of people on earth believe in God is not because they are ignorant (though surely some are). I believe that at some deep level, we all can feel the presence. Those of us who spend a great deal of time in quiet contemplation and meditation see this more clearly, as God is most easily seen in the quiet, simple things (great scripture DLD!). It is why the poor and needy see him more clearly than the affluent. They have quiet and simplicity forced upon them. It is why the affluent find God obscured, they have no time or patience for quiet or simplicity.

I appreciate that you believe you know what you will or will not do when that time comes upon you, like it will all of us. I am only saying that you should be aware that what you think you believe today, how you think you will act when the time comes, might not be how it goes down at all. I assert again that in many observed deaths I really have not seen many atheists die atheists.

[dyslexic_smile]

PirateSteve,

Thanks for the honest answer. I know I come off as being angry and what not when I reply (probably cuz anytime I get involved in talks about God, it makes my brain hurt), but it's nice to see I can get a well thought out reply that doesn't try to hide anything.

And it's true that I've never taken you up on the flower offer...yet. I have spent days in nature all by myself, not seeing another human in that time. That is quite an experience in and of itself, although not at all what you are saying to try. So, I will take you up on the offer, although probably not until next spring, as I'd like to see a wildflower in action.

I sincerely doubt my views on anything will change, but if I magically find God in that flower, then I'll let you know and thank you later.

Oh yeah, and I've also been "close to death," but nothing even remotely as bad as what you've experienced. I didn't ask for God's help then, and probably won't ever. But you're right, I can't validly say that I KNOW what I will do on my last day on this Earth, seeing as I haven't been there. Let's just say that I'm fairly confident though.

- DS


PS: Your last post wasn't a mess, and there's no need to apologize for anything you said, especially considering the circumstances involved.

[goodbutnotgreat]

PirateSteve . . .

Although your words did little to shift my perspective they were by far the most eloquent and concise, as well as criticaly informed statement in favor of relgion that I have heard in a great while. The talk of flowers as universal proof, experiecne after death; such subjective things lend little weight to a debate with people who explcitly reject anecdotal evidence . . . but kudos nonetheless. It seems you have an excellent grasp on what it takes to make your own life satisfying as well as a tolerance for the world, and for that you are comendable. Best of luck, and cheers to a fine post. GBNG

[Godsize]

Why should I believe in God when he/she/it doesn't believe in me?

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
When Chris Columbus sailed to America 200 years ago... He would have been shocked to learn that he'd already been dead for 300 years! :)

Columbus discovered America about 511 years ago. The Mayflower landed about 383 years ago. The colonies declared their independence from England about 227 years ago.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
Around 500 million years ago: amino acids (proteins) + fatty acids (lipids) appears in tidal pools and stagant ponds (dry & hot during day, cold & humid at night).

The first cellular lifeforms found in the fossil record date back an astounding 3.5 billion years! The earth itself formed about 4.2 billion years ago. So just a few hundred million years after the earth's surface cooled off enough, DNA life appeared.

Not much changed (as far as we know) until about 500 million years ago when lifeforms suddenly diversified. That's when the major branches diverged (plants, animals.)

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by PirateSteve
Not many atheists in combat. And yet a lot of men get killed in combat. Thus proving, apparently, that God didn't answer their prayers.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by German Stallion
Hi Bob.....Fossil records, so called, are based on predetermined criteria....namely that they are millions of years old. The theory that things happen like they have for millions of years without a glitch does not wash. In fact, you can't have a fossil unless something catastrophic happened. Fossils are evidence of things not happening in the norm. So, that fossil from Iowa is evidence of something happening in that sea that once was in Iowa. But what caused it to become a fossil. If it died today, it would not become a fossil unless there was a catastrophe. And, evolution is predicated on something that was nothing becoming something and evolving over millions of years. Millions of years won't wash in our present rate of existence. The sun won't allow for millions of years, it is burning out at a rate that would not allow it to have been that far back. Proof again that the very balance of things in this earth are held in balance by a creator. Fossil records prove the existence of the whole realm of creatures existing together not separate. I live in a very well known fossil area. Interestingly the fossil record shows 90 million year old fossils from one period of so called time, being above some of 120 million year old so called...and it gets worse, things that didn't exist together in evolution are all being found together. Isn't that a hoot. No, guys, you can read all you want and listen to all the gibberish the evolutions throw at you and you con't have a leg to stand on...oh, and you have legs, hmmm, not fins...because you are made that way. You never had fins. There is no, absolutely no, evidence for the cross over and the missing link.
You make numerous claims above, but each on inspection turns up to be based on really really bad science.

For instance, the basis for your claims that the lifetime of the sun is too short. You didn't cite your basis, but that old canard has been kicking around for years. As I recall it is based not on the fusion nuclear model of the sun, but on some crank's estimate of the shrinkage rate of the sun based on old astronomical measurements of the sun's diameter over the previous decades.

In actuality, the diameter of the sun is hard to measure exactly, especially in the past, due to the limitations of optical instruments determining the boundry between the "atmosphere" and the "surface." Since it is a gaeous ball, the determination is somewhat arbitrary, hence there are variations in estimates. From this, some creationist crank played numbers games and determined the sun was shrinking at a high rate of speed. The reality is that it is just error noise in the measurements. The sun really isn't shrinking at a high rate.

As for mixed age fossils -- it really depends on who is claiming them to be mixed.

Before the era of nuclear methods, fossil ages were classified by the strata they were found in. In a somewhat iterative process, remote strata could be correlated by similar type fossils. Note that some species exist over long periods of time and so span several strata. Others exist only for a limited time, and appear only in a certain strata.

These strata have to be undisturbed at the time of discovery for such age estimates to be made. Erosion and glaciers can easily mix artifacts from several strata and redeposit them downstream. This is a recognized disturbance in the strata identification and it represents a loss of information. It doesn't prove reverse evolution -- just that natural events mixed things up after the fact.

Finally, since the development of nuclear science, they have been able to correlate strata layers with absolute ages based upon decay rates of radioactive isotopes.

One useful method involves a specific decay that produces a decay product that is a gas. During times of volcanic eruption, this gas escapes, reseting the "clock." The rock cools and hardens and the gas begins to build up again. The amount of gas in the solid rock versus the amount of radioactive isotope gives the age since the eruption. This is good for hundreds of millions of years.

Volcanic ash found in the strata gives the ages of the strata -- which by the above earlier correlation between strata worldwide, gives the age of that strata worldwide.

There are several different radioactive isotope age methods. They apply in different situations. But they all seem to give consistent results -- the earth is billions of years old, the bulk of evolution has occurred over the past 500 million years.

[Idiot666]

Jesus some people can talk crap.

you know what? the arguements going on in this thread are proof that religion causes violence. when people become to serious about it, it takes away the magic of it.

I believe in a afterlife
I do not believe god is a conscious (that is he can't think or make decisions)
I do not belieive a soul is a cloudy blue thing but i do think it is a representation of everything good about ourselves.

GS you shouldn't be so head strong. calm down and break your thoughts down to basics.

religion has become to material. everyone thinks god is a person who can create stuff and what not. and heaven is a place with lots of clouds.

Noone should be as passionate as some people are on this thread about their opinion. some of you should be ashamed. even though people say that they arn't trying to force their belief on others, they really are.

instead of having beliefs, people are preparing arguements

[stillwantmore]

I dont know if I believe in "God" as a sole, devine entity or in "Jesus Christ" as the saviour of mankind. I do believe there is some 'higher power' or perhaps a creative force is a better term to use. I cannot personally put my finger on ONE sole belief and say for example "yes, I definitely believe that this is true as depicted herein this text". I have come to believe through archeaological fact that the history of the earth is not all that it seems and that "history" as defined in most texts is in fact incorrect and that humans have been on earth far longer than accepted by many people and scientific 'circles'. Take Egypt and the Sphinx for example. There is a big circle of scientists and acheaologists who believe that the Sphinx in Egypt is around 4,500 years or so old. It is a fact though that Egypt was once a lush landscape with regular rainfall, trees, grass, etc around 10,000 years ago....if this is true ...the Sphinx would have to be more than twice as old as many people accept it to be. One source of evidence for this fact is WATER erosion marks on the Sphinx. Is there extra terrestrial life out there? Dunno. Who can say for certain right now anyway? I do think it's an awefully HUGE waste of space though if we are the ONLY intelligent life in the ENTIRE universe.

As far as religion goes, I dont think any ONE religion can truly be considered more right or better than any other. Most if not all religions are in fact simply re-interpretations of one or the other or so it seems and NOBODY can for sure point to any culture of the world and say for certain "here is where religion really started". What "religion" really came first? I think it was probably Astrology. While not really considered a true "religion", it shares MANY of the same principles of "Christianity" and most other religions. There's the Sun in the center of the chart....Son of "God", then, the 12 signs of the Zodiac...12 deciples of Christ, the "son of God". Many religions...NOT JUST "Christianity" share a "Devine birth" or "Virgin Birth" or "Immaculate Coneption" of their "savior". The sun of our solar system (center of the Astrological chart right?) according to the "Big Bang" theory was created spontaneously and from a religious stand point...out of nothing.

I believe that we are here for some sort of purpose though. What that purpose is...who can really say. If you take the religous approach you could say we're here to fullfill some devine purpose...some predestined final conflict between good and evil and to ultimately live in "bliss" for all eternity with our creator. There are many arguments for and against religion. Which one is right though? I've heard it said that "religion" was invented by mankind as a means to give peace of mind...rather than having to accept that we are simply living an ultimately bleak existence...when we die thats it.....that's a scary thought that would lead ...and possibly DOES lead many people to lives of fear so mankind invented religion and God, and spirtuallity to divert our thoughts away from dwelling on the fact that we're simply an evolved, higher life form that in the end is nothing more than worm food when we die.

There are those who believe that we are a result of some sort of "hybrid" genetic engineering by alien life forms who visited earth many thousands of years ago and continue to visit earth. Ah but if this is so....who or what created these alien beings? Did they just "poof" appear out of nowhere? Or did they evolve like everything else? Maybe we are a result of hybrid engineering? I like that idea much better than the idea that we evolved from some mindless creature that crawled from the seas eons ago, evolved into an ape and then a man. LOL. Alien life forms would be a nice way to help explain how the Pyramids and Sphinx were built....nobody to this day can put a definite answer on that...nor reproduce on the same scale ...even with modern engineering technology these huge structures.

So, Do I believe in "God"? I'm not totally sure really. I mean all matter and life in the universe is here as a result of 'something' happening. If there is this all seeing, omnipresent being or entity that created us and the universe though....then, where did "GOD" come from???? Was God just drifting along in nothingness since before time could be measured only to at some point become bored and decide to creat a universe?? I mean comon...how could that be? How could this "God" have just always been there..? He/she/it had to come from somewhere right?

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by stillwantmore
I have come to believe through archeaological fact that the history of the earth is not all that it seems and that "history" as defined in most texts is in fact incorrect and that humans have been on earth far longer than accepted by many people and scientific 'circles'. Take Egypt and the Sphinx for example. There is a big circle of scientists and acheaologists who believe that the Sphinx in Egypt is around 4,500 years or so old. It is a fact though that Egypt was once a lush landscape with regular rainfall, trees, grass, etc around 10,000 years ago....if this is true ...the Sphinx would have to be more than twice as old as many people accept it to be.
5000 versus 10,000 years is not that big a deal. Homo sapiens have existed somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 years. So actually the brain capacity to form civilizations has been around a lot longer than any known great civilizations. This is probably because for a long time humans existed in small isolated tribes.

By the way, the oldest known pyramids are in South America and are about 1000 years older than the pyramids in Egypt.

[Godsize]

I'm so glad that this visciously divisive topic is a sticky thread!

I'm not sure if I believe in God.... I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for most of my educational career, which most likely had a hand in making me discard most religious bullshit.

I believe that we were created, but by God? I don't know.

[cascade]

I am an agnostic, meaning that i do not believe that god exists or that he does not exist.

I need proof to belive either way.

I am just neutral.

The world is too full of pain to think that god could exist.
I really think that god and satan are the same thing if they do exist.

Just playing us for fools.

Cheers,
Cas

[Omul_Paianjen]

Hi I am an Orthodox and I used to be a non-believer and I used just the same arguments to prove there is no God. But.... I felt it was WRONG. I don`t know.. I felt something inside of me that I couldn`t deny. Try to view this more symbolic. I think God is the path to doing good, to keeping yourself balanced [psychologically]. Both the Devil and God are inside you. See, when you do something wrong [I dont mean a minor thing] you find it difficult to see who you really are, and by doing so, you can easily get lost.
Praying is a psychological act, if you believe in God, it can help you find yourself, become better and find strength and positive energy within you. If you believe in God you are not dummer, nor if you dont, but you cannot deny your spiritual side.
Try to go to the church ..... You are wasting so much optimism!!

P.S. I will never be able to understand U guys who believe in aliens and dont believe in God.

[PirateSteve]

Spidy,
Very nice first post, I like how you think! Allow me to extend a warm welcome, and I hope to hear many more of your thoughts.

Pirate

[cascade]

The only thing we can truly believe in is ourselves.

Cheers,
Cas

[Omul_Paianjen]

PirateSteve,

I`m very glad to be here and thanks.... I feel really welcome here..

[Texan]

Originally posted by doublelongdaddy
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

(2 Corinthians 11:3)


True, DLD. I believe in God. I believe Jesus is the Christ.

I'm a pretty smart guy, and I'm smart enough to know that I don't, can't know everything. I find it humorous that a bunch of dick pullers like ourselves would try to claim to know anything. That's why it's called faith.

FYI atheists: science has been proven inaccurate and tweaked throughout time; by its very nature and defintion science is an ongoing learning experience. Show me one time the Bible has ever been PROVEN wrong. On the contrary, it has NEVER been proven wrong, simply that some things cannot be proven. I'm talking here the difference in positively disproving some thing/idea(as has happened SO many times with science throughout history), and simple inability to substatiate one way or the other.

Why do scientists think they are so smart that if they can't PROVE something, it must not be. It is oxymoronic to claim such high intelligence and not be able to realize you don't know everything and there may, simply, be things beyond our human realm of comprehension.

I won't try to prove to you the existence of God and that Jesus was God on earth to allow us a means of eternal salvation. I can't. I will say all the proof I need is in my heart.

I know it's lame, but like Phoebe said to Ross on Friends: Can't you just admit the possibility. Scientists were absolutely sure for years that the atom was the smallest thing in existence and then it got split open and all this crap came out. If you were wrong about that, can't you admit that you may be wrong about God?

Last and probably least, if one of us is going to be wrong, and one of is, you better hope its me.

Now I can go back to relaxing in my 'ignorant' Christian bliss and work on making my meat bigger.:)

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by Texan
FYI atheists: science has been proven inaccurate and tweaked throughout time; by its very nature and defintion science is an ongoing learning experience. Show me one time the Bible has ever been PROVEN wrong.
Science is indeed a method to reveal the truth by successive approximation and the body of knowledge so acquired.

On the other hand, "proving something wrong" or false is a fool's errand.

There have been many religions that have come and gone in man's history. Not a single one of them has been "disproven" in any meaningful sense. Those that have been lost have simply lost the last members who believed in that particular religion.

There are, of course, as many possible religions as there are individuals with the imagination to create them. And the range of possibilities in such myth creation is virtually unlimited.

How could anyone begin to "disprove" each and every religion, most of which offer no means of testing them?

An advocate of any particular religion always assumes his particular religion is true unless disproven.

But in my case as an atheist, I see lots of religions trying to sell me on their belief. It is simply not practical for me to attempt to prove or disprove any one of them, let alone all of them.

So unless the religious advocate can PROVE his religion to me, why should I pick his over the others, why should I pick any one or combination of them???

[PirateSteve]

Excellent post Mr. Dobbs. You cannot disprove a moving target. Yet if somehow you were able to prove all religions were made by man and are false, does this lead to a scientific finding that God is too? And if so many men, in fact over 98% of them I believe, trust in some version of God, is that not empirical enough to conclude that SOME version of God exists? Or are we all, unlike you chosen skeptics, completely duped?

Unfortunately, God is not about scientific proof at all. It is a cruel irony for people who require proof. God is about faith. Even you atheists have some of that, though you refuse to admit it. For instance, do you have a complete understanding of electricity, how it is made, how it is delivered, how it makes a light-bulb light?

A Complete understanding now - how we can excite electrons, and why they behave as they do. I will assume that you do not. Now, despite not having proved electricity, and not being able to see it, you turn the light switch every day and know without a doubt the light will come on. That is faith.

Those of us who have faith have experienced God in our lives, just like the light when it was switched on. We know he is there, just like you know the light will come on. And since we have no more understanding of God than you do of electricity, we have no way to Prove he exists. We just accept he is there, as you do the electricity.

Of course this analogy can be picked apart, but a smart man will see the truth of it. Perhaps you do indeed understand electricity, but maybe you don't internal combustion. Or perhaps why it rains. But see the dark cloud, and you will run for cover!

We of faith get frustrated when you don't see the simplicity of flicking the switch to get light. You get frustrated with the same old lame arguments you have heard a thousand times before, NONE of which can prove anything.

God is not found in a church, a religion, a board thread. He is found in that quietest place inside each of us we rarely go. The church, the religion, those are how we celebrate our faith - not how we gain it. Sometimes a church or an individual can help us see what we did not before, but not always or even often. Most of us need to experience it on our own, in our own time.

The good news is that the debate continues. The more we discuss, the more you think about proving or disproving God. The more you think about God, the more there is a chance you will recognize what you have not yet noticed and find your way to a path of discovery.

Notice that nobody on this board is pushing that they have the only true God. Nobody here is trying to sell the atheists a specific package. I find that refreshing and it speaks highly of the quality of posters here at MOS. I think you recognize that too.

For us it's like having a good piece of candy we want to share with a friend. He won't taste it unless we can describe it. But since it is unlike anything else we know, we can't - we have no frame of reference. So he goes away without flavoring this most wonderful candy, and we feel sad. We wanted to share.

[Texan]

Originally posted by bobbdobbs
On the other hand, "proving something wrong" or false is a fool's errand.

There have been many religions that have come and gone in man's history. Not a single one of them has been "disproven" in any meaningful sense. Those that have been lost have simply lost the last members who believed in that particular religion.


Dobbs,

You have good points, but please understand my post had NOTHING to do with disproving a religion or faith (which you were 100% correct in asserting cannot be done). Perhaps I was not clear, but my post said the Bible has never been disproven, and that IS something that, theoretically, could be done, but it hasn't. All scientific evidence pertaining to the Bible has proven its accuracy.

The Bible is a very detailed book. It is not like reading a horoscope. Our Book has a very detailed account of history as well as a very detailed account of the origin and history of our faith. If ANY aspect (historical or faithical) of this Book could be positively disproven it would seriously affect the legitimacy of the entire work. But there is nothing that can be cited that is dispositive of the Bible. And the opportunity to do so is there.

I am not referring to you specifically Dobbs, because I don't your beliefs, but I do not understand how some can buy into the theory of evolution so easily. It has holes in it. I'm not saying the human species (and others) hasn't had evolutionary advances over time, but do I think my grandaddy was an ape? No. Why anyone would choose to believe this is beyond me. Evolutionists can't prove their theory any better than I can prove mine... if they could they wouldn't be looking high and low for the conclusive "missing link." Its funny; they've found fossils older than the alleged "missing link" and obviously newer ones, so where is it?

They haven't seen it, yet they believe (faith?). I guess they have more in common with me than they realize.

Best to all-

[NeXus]

What do you mean that the Bible has never been proven wrong?
First of it all it was written by men not the word of God. God dosent write books. The Bible also says to punish people to death for crimes like infidelity. The Bible is wrong on all of its fairy tales like making man out of clay and woman out of a rib. It sounds like a book of Madlibs. Noah's Ark could never of happened. Do you know how many species of insects there are? Millions. How could this old man gather 2 of every animal and get them to fuck on a boat? Remember Millions of insects.

I know that Christians and Realists will never be able to come to an agreement until science proves otherwise, which I believe that we will sometime in the future. But until then why would you believe someone, who I guaranetee is no smarter or holier than you, that they know what happens when you die.

Lets come to an agreement. I know that we all have theories and faiths that we believe in. I believe in science and you believe in faith. Only one can be scientifically proven with facts so far, but lets all face the fact that we really dont know what happens when we die. Nobody knows for a Fact, not the Pope, not the Priest and not even scientists. I'm willing to face the fact that I don't know and therefore can say I am open to all theories. And the chips fall where they may. Lets all admit that we will never know until the day we die.

Also if the afterlife is Heaven, which is eternal paradise and eternal bliss walking beside Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven, then why dont Christians celebrate when people die? I know if that was the case I'd would be hoping for death. No more job, money, politics, or anything just eternal bliss.

[PirateSteve]

You know, just when I post how pleased I am that no believer here is selling a specific package, BAM!

Nexus, I agree with most of your post. Excellent, but:

>lets all face the fact that we really dont know what happens when we die. Nobody knows for a Fact, not the Pope, not the Priest and not even scientists.<

True enough, except, some of us have died and returned. I, for instance, have twice. I didn't go all the way to the bright light, but I can assure you it's there - and there is a whole lot more. And I am not the only one. A few HAVE gone to the light and returned just to be scorned. Scientists, skeptics and Christians alike want to believe they are crackers and refuse to give them any credibility. Apparently such considerations do not fit any of their agendas...

I do agree completely with this:

>>Also if the afterlife is Heaven, which is eternal paradise and eternal bliss walking beside Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven, then why dont Christians celebrate when people die? I know if that was the case I'd would be hoping for death. No more job, money, politics, or anything just eternal bliss.<<

True believers are exactly like this, they have no fear of death and celebrate the passing when it comes. In fact, it is how I separate false religious pomposity from true belief. Many who claim to believe actually don't. Oh mind you, they want to believe, they are DESPERATE to believe, they completely fool their conscious mind into believing, but their subconscious still doubts.

These "almost" believers are the loud ones who make religion unpalatable to everyone else - not on purpose, not intentionally, but as a result of trying so desperately to convince themselves. Always quoting empty scripture with one dimensional interpretation. They know each individual scripture, and seem to enjoy beating you over the head with it, but have no real understanding of what the whole collection of verses means.

I imagine that their subconscious figures the more people the they can convince the more they can accept the truth themselves. Or perhaps they believe that by browbeating enough people into the church membership they will earn a way into heaven in case it exists. Maybe they just think if they are loud enough God will reveal himself to them and they can really believe. Whatever, they are a pain in everyones ass.

Many others do actually believe, but don't believe that they THEMSELVES will be able to get into paradise. They fear judgment, despite what their religion teaches about redemption. So they go to church, pay the money, say their prayers, all in hopes that somehow something will be looked upon well and they will be able to get to paradise after all. They are the quiet majority in every religious gathering, and they are very much afraid.

Lack of observable unity of belief among individuals within religious groups is exactly the kind of thing that drives many of the curious away from religion. Perhaps rightly so. I just want to remind you that just because the religions you have experienced are unpalatable, ridiculous or outright unbelievable - does not lead to a sane conclusion that God himself does not exist. Man is flawed and human even in his expression of faith.

[PirateSteve]

Originally posted by Texan
Perhaps I was not clear, but my post said the Bible has never been disproven, and that IS something that, theoretically, could be done, but it hasn't. All scientific evidence pertaining to the Bible has proven its accuracy.


Tex,
Just a thought. I think the onus to prove the Bible is on those that want to introduce it as evidence. Otherwise it is simply here-say. Unfortunately, the only proof ever presented by anyone to my knowledge is forced to rely on circular arguments.

And while one might rightfully claim it is a fine historical document, and even good at presenting the thoughts and ideals of many of those portrayed in it, further claims to non-believers without specific proof of the source material are specious at best.

[German Stallion]

I am not sure that writing a reply to any of this will prove productive but it will hopefully give some positive thought to the discussion about the Bible. While I realize that many who read this will discredit the Bible, it is a book that has stood the test of time and defends itself. It is accurate where it speaks, both regarding history and science. To say that it has yet to be disproved is really true too. You or I may not understand it but it speaks truth. Where a seemingly contradiction occurs it is generally because it is not understood or viewed from another position. It is not hard to explain Noah's Ark. There is enough evidence to prove that this "boat" existed. Expeditions to Mt Arrat in Turkey have given more than total credit. Two of every species is not beyond comprehension. Insects...I don't worry about what I don't understand. If Noah took them into the ark or they survived the flood, I don't know. We sure have plenty now. The Bible itself says that men wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Much of what we believe, we believe by faith. We do things, hoping for a correct result. We do things because we have faith it will work.
The Bible is full of examples of people who had faith to try something and accomplish it. The Bible is a History book as well as a view of what God is like. Unfortunately I keep hearing from those on this thread as well as those I know personally, about a concept of God as portrayed by a religious group, or groups, a concept of denominational views and other views that make God to be what man has painted HIM rather than what the Bible says. I can't change that, but the God of the Bible is often not the god of the so called church or religion.
Death to the believer in Christ holds no fear. While he might know know what the future holds, he has a faith in the work of the the cross and if the Bible is true, and it is, then it says to be absent from the body, death, is to be present with the Lord.
Some will come back and challenge me to prove the Bible true. I don't need to do that. It proves itself. It can defend itself. Any so called errors are places of minor controversy that you want to find fault with. Do I believe it. Yes. Where I have had to explain or try and decipher it, I have found it true, despite my attempts to discredit it.
For example: In Hebrews 11:3 the bible says that the "things that are seen were not made of things which do appear."
We were so smart to discover the atom and find out that all the things we see are made of things (atoms) put together in a particular molecular structure, atoms so small we can't see them. God told us that long before we in our intelligence discovered the atom.
Archeology is constantly discovering things that prove the Bible accurate. It is accurate where it speaks.
We major on things that we often don't understand. I guess I don't have trouble with the things I don't understand. I sure enough have trouble with the things I do understand.
Don't mean to try and discredit anyone or convince anyone. Just my thoughts. Thanks for listening. GS

[goodbutnotgreat]

a quick word about science . . .

it's not a belief system - it is a process.

a scientific theory is not regarded to be absolute truth in the scientific community . . . it is simply the best possible explanation that has not yet been disproved by an easily repeated and explainable process. science and rationality ask you to accept nothing more than this. science is always willing to correct and improve upin itself, it is seeking the best answers, it is not a static body of knowledge. there is no anti-religious bias in science, this is just percieved because so little of any religious thought holds up to examination and scrutiny.

religion, christianity in particular since that seemt to be what we are discussing here, orders you to accept it as the one reality and truth based soley on "faith," which is a fine and romantic notion, but is more or less a code word for surrender to irrationality.

why on earth would i believe there is some kind of cosmic or unfathomable super-being watching my every move and judging me, condmening my life if i don't live it according to some arcane principles? why has the whole world's population not been exposed to this? are the billion are so christians just special, and the 10 billion or so other modern humans that have ever lived are doomed? somebody back there cited the fact that much of the world believes in some kind of god, well let me just chime in that although that is quite true, the differences between said gods are severe, and many believe in polytheistic relgions that are vastly different than any western one-god relgions (which incidently are all derived from the jews, the first to popularize a one god faith system).

why did a god fill our world with conflictory evidence to what religion dictates? is he into tricking his flock? i would ask the religious to at least contemplate whether they feel god would be in their lives if they were raised isolated from society. god is not intuitive, relgion is indoctrination, people know about and believe in it because they were either told to when they were young or sold on when they were older.

i don't have a problem with religion, more power to you. but i do feel that limiting your view and perception of the world through a belief system cooked up a few thousand years ago doesn't do you any favors in life. i don't want the answers handed to me. i also know that athiests have never gone about murdering people or fighting wars because they don't believe in god . . . but millions have lost their lives because of faith. this doesn't reflect on people that hold faith now, but rather on the nature of faith itself.

i never believed in god, not even when i was a small child, i found the idea absurd even then. i have researched relgion, read books arguing for and agaisnt faith, left my mind open. i can never escape the fact ever, that in the end religion is asking you to just believe without much merit, it is soley based on what others claim, it is anecdotal at best, and certainly less rational than the conclsuion that relgion is not an accurate explanation of things. and what benefit do i get from belief? nothing really, i don't need. i don't fear death, because i think there is nothing afterwards, your brain shuts down, there is no pain, no thought, nothing, and that is okay, because hey, i'll be gone. i believe one of the reasons religion developed in the first place was the primitive human fear and curiosity surrounding death.

i'm surprised nobody here has cited the famous propsition by the mathematician blais pascal, who wagered that it is worth your while to have faith in god, because by doing so you risk nothing and stand to gain much in the afterlife if god is real. by not believing you risk eternity. my reaction to that has been the same my whole life, since i heard it at the age of 11 . . . sheer cowardice. i'll never submit to what any group dogmatically claims to be the truth without so much as a shred of evidence, other than volumes of circular rhetoric, out of a ridiculous fear of some afterlife torture for not submitting. the very fact that a concept of hell of punishment was ever introduced just throws more evidence towards the notion that religion is very much about fear and control. it may not have started out that way, but if you read the old testament, that god, the original god before he was re-written in the sequal, is one angry motherfucker.



*german stallion - you seem like a nice guy. pick up a copy of "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. it's not actually about demons, don't worry, but it might give you some food for thought.

[German Stallion]

Hi Good...Thanks for the thought on the book. I don't have the book but went on line and read CARL SAGAN'S BALONEY DETECTION KIT...based on the book. Will try and get a copy. Very interesting and I must say thought provoking. I read this article carefully and honestly and many, not 100 per cent, but many of the thoughts were things that I have put into my thinking process when dealing with many subjects. Much of the discussion about God is predicated by bias of a denomination or experience that is often very faulty or is a straw man issue. When I begin to see common denominators showing up, then I know there is a pre-detrmined, or generally or often, a pre-detrmined bias. When we start off with a wrong premise then the results are going to be wrong...no matter how hard we work the problem. Anyway, these are good discussioins and make us think. Thinking is something that many have forgotten how to do. GS

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by goodbutnotgreat
i'm surprised nobody here has cited the famous propsition by the mathematician blais pascal, who wagered that it is worth your while to have faith in god, because by doing so you risk nothing and stand to gain much in the afterlife if god is real.
Probably because it has an obvious flaw. There is more than one religion, more than one god to choose from. So it is not an either/or choice. If you pick the wrong god among the multitude, you are still screwed.

So his idea that there was an obvious win-win choice was merely a myopic illusion.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by German Stallion
the Bible, it is a book that has stood the test of time and defends itself. It is accurate where it speaks, both regarding history and science. To say that it has yet to be disproved is really true too.... It is not hard to explain Noah's Ark. There is enough evidence to prove that this "boat" existed. Expeditions to Mt Arrat in Turkey have given more than total credit. Two of every species is not beyond comprehension. Insects...I don't worry about what I don't understand.

You say the Bible has not been disproven, but then when challenged, you say you don't worry about what you don't understand.

All that says to me is that your criteria for "disproof" is essentially meaningless.

[lonerj]

Hahaha
It makes me laugh when people bring up scientific facts and such.
Why do people believe what is fed to you?

Seriously the big bang "theory". It's a THEORY. Until they prove it, it's full of shit. Science thrives on the necessity to have a reason for everything.

Science has its benefits (medicine, technology) but it is not the answer to everything.

Do people seriously believe the history books given out in schools as well?

I bet you if you compare history books from different places of the world and the same events collide, you'll see that it is 2 different things.

It's funny how some atheists (not all) say some things about science and say things like "free your mind" when it's exactly the science that fed them their knowledge thus their mind being slaves to the commercialism of science.

Just believe whatever your heart tells you. Don't let people say you're going to go to hell if you don't believe in God or say things like the world started from the big bang theory. The answer is in yourself.

[lonerj]

i'm surprised nobody here has cited the famous propsition by the mathematician blais pascal, who wagered that it is worth your while to have faith in god, because by doing so you risk nothing and stand to gain much in the afterlife if god is real.

That is the most foolish thing I've ever heard. There's no such thing as half stepping. His belief was made out of either fear or trying to create a win-win situation which is made out of selfishness.

You either believe or you don't. It's all or nothing. :)

[German Stallion]

I don't know what you are saying Bob... I don't understand many things and the things I want to understand I work at and the things I don't, I don't worry about. Not to argue with you, but don't put words in my mouth.
Perhaps I don't articulate like you think I should or to even make myself clear to you. I will try and do better.
Let me rephrase that...The Bible has not been disproven. When I say I don't worry about that which I don't understand I am saying that many things I trust, believe what may have been proven, I might not understand all the aspects. I am a ham radio operater and got my license years ago when it was much simpler than today. Much to the technology of today I don't understand. Don't worry about it and don't really care, but I still enjoy the privlege of using the radio. If that helps you to know what I mean, then I hope I am getting it across. To disprove something and have criteria for it is really very objective. You might not agree with my criteria for believing and I might not agree with your criteria for disbelieving. Something has to be a standard or set boundry. So, before we can debate any issue we have to come to some conclusion as to what is the standard. So many people have pre set standards or whatever you would call them but they are faulty so the results of the proof or disproof are also faulty. Regarding God: You might say, God, if you are real, knock me down....and wait a few minutes and say, see, God didn't knock me down, so there must not be a God. That doesn't prove anything. Why should God knock you down. What would be the purpose. And, who is to say that He won't or can't.

Regarding the Bible: I believe it is truth. Now go from there. If it is truth, then it will reveal truth. It is a history of Israel and God's dealing with that people. It is a record/account of creation and you or I can't disprove it. Go ahead and try and disprove it. Go ahead and attack God. If the Bible won't stand your attack or God won't meet the challenge then I am wrong.

By the way, I understand that you don't believe in God. I may be wrong, so if you do, then I apoligize. But if you don't believe in God, then I have a challenge for you. First, I don't believe there is any man alive that does not know there is God. You can say what you will and write all you want but I don't believe in your heart of hearts, down inside you know there is God. Now, here is my challenge. I know a man that reports that he has over the years given thousands of ploygraph tests. I can supply his name to you. He has reported that one of his test questions is: Do you believe in God. No one, absolutely no one ever, so he says, has ever passed the test. All fail. Take a polygraph test and see what you really do believe. That is a criteria. Might not be a good one. You might not agree, but it is a thought. Thanks for listening. GS Spellcheck isn't working, so forgive the spelling errors

[goodbutnotgreat]

i see people were interested in pascal's wager . . . good deal.

i hope they read a little further and read what i think of it, but whatever. for the record, even though i disagree with pascal's personal philosophies, he was extraordinarily brilliant, a true blue genius and scholar of the highest achievement.

i won't waste a bunch of space sticking up for science, i'll just repeat what i said before: science is a method of inquiry, and it's an open system, subject to change and improvement. that's why i like it, it doesn't proclaim to be the truth, just the best explanation we have worked out. it's not anecdotal, it doesn't rely on "it just is" type explanations, it's simply a body of knowledge derived from a system of inquiry and testing for reliability. you don't have to have faith in the knowledge that science has produced, but you do have to agree with the principles behind the proccess (and generally i think it's a pretty good process. see that computer in front of you? logged onto the internet? god didn't teleport the schematics for that baby into somebody's head).

i honestly like religion, i think it's fascinating, and it is a key component of human society. i don't believe in it, but i don't begrudge anyone who does. the only thing i don't care for is when one side, athiest or religious, or between different religions, tries to impress their ideas on others or force people to subscribe to their beliefs. however, i think debating it is great. people that don't examine their views lead empty lives, and nothing is worth believing in (or not believing in) if it isn't worth questioning. perhaps if we could come to a reasonable conclusion about the existence of god we could ponder how he feels about PE? if i thought there was a god you better believe i would ask him why i wasn't born with 8X6!

[goodbutnotgreat]

oh yeah . . .

loner j - no need to call other people's opinions laughable, unless you don't mind having it done to you i suppose. for the record, yes, the big bang is a theory. so is the concept of techtonic plates . . . but just because you can't see them sliding around do you deny that earthquakes happen and continents move? background radiation in the universe can be traced using hignly complicated methods i do not understand, but i do know that the scientific community pretty much agrees as whole thate radiation waves create a reliable time frame and point of origin for the universe.

the "laughable" scientists, with their silly doctorates and triflingly prolific bodies of research don't claim to know why there was big bang or what existed before it, but it seems quite clear it occurred, based on all the information we currently have.

how does variety of historical interpretation have anything to do with science?

how is science commercial?

how is believing in science anymore close-minded than believing in anything else?

what if you believe in scientific explanations because you have evaluated the other options carefully and found science preferable?

socrates was the wisest man in athens because he knew that he was not . . .

[NeXus]

I was watching a educational documentary on PBS, called the Elegant Universe, the other day and they were talking about the exploration of space and other shit.

On the show they talk about the string theory which basically is that if you disect an atom to its smallest form you will find its made of up of vibrating circular "strings". This is pretty breakthrough because scientists cant disprove it right now.

It also talks about everything in the universe is relative and can be predicted and explained with 2 theories. One theory, known as General Relativty, is used to predict and describe big things like stars and galaxies and figure out why they do the things they do. Why the Earth rovolves around the sun. (oh yeah its because the sun disrupts the "space fabric" and draws things in its wave. Imagine an apple, the sun, is in the middle of a bedsheet.)

The second theory is Quantum Mechanics which is used in describing small things like atoms and subatomic particles. Which is used here on earth and cant yet be disproven.

Both theories exist together but not inconjunction with each other. General Relativity cant explain small things and vice versa. But scientist believe there is one theory that could combine these two into one universal theory that can be used from a sun drawing planets closer and a glass falling on the floor.

Im not trying to teach you guys anything but the point of this is you will never be able to explain anything by believing in some religious, superstitious, brainwashing, rederic propaganda. Everything can be explained, you just need you want to face truth.

Oh yeah and to whoever said "Why do people believe what is fed to you?". You should take some of your own fuckin advice and reject the mind control thats been programmed into your head.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/about.html

[PirateSteve]

Bible History 102:

Few Christians ever research or care where their "Word of God" came from. The "Word of God" has been changed, adjusted and rewritten many times over the centuries, and the prudent Christian needs to know the history of his book, and must be careful in his choice translation. The history of the Bible is quite sordid actually, and even todays versions are quite different from each other. So here I present the History of the Bible 102 (the next installment will trace the origins of the original manuscripts - Bible 101):

(Text from www.biblestudy.org)

What is wrong with modern translations of the Bible like the New International Version? Why have Catholics fought and defended their translation of the Bible since the Middle Ages? Does it really MATTER what translation we use to study what God has to say to us?

If you believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ, the rightful successor of the apostles, then you will like the New International Version of the Bible. Currently, the NIV outsells all other English Bibles, including the venerable Authorized King James Version. It has been a struggle for centuries, but, finally, we have a dominant English Bible that supports Catholic doctrines. How did this happen?

What are modern translations based on?

Origen (A.D. 184-254), one of the most famous "Church fathers," was instrumental in editing manuscripts upon which the NIV, and all modern versions, are based. He tells us that he would not hand down Christian teachings, pure and unmixed, but rather clothed with the precepts of pagan philosophy. Adam Clarke says Origen was the first "Christian" teacher of purgatory. A pupil of the Gnostic star worshipper Clement of Alexandria, Origin lightly esteemed the Bible's historical basis. "The Scriptures," Origen maintained, " are of little use to those who understand them as they are written." Origen greatly influenced Eusebius (260-340), who produced fifty copies of a Latin version, at the behest of Emperor Constantine. Although Constantine is remembered for establishing Sunday worship and the Catholic Church as the state religion, his action in choosing Eusebius' rendition of Origen's Bible was perhaps more important. Modern versions are based on the Vaticanus Manuscript (Codex B), and the Sinaiticus Manuscript (Codex Aleph), which are of the Eusebio-Origen type. Many authorities believe they were actually two of the fifty Constantine Bibles.

The Catholic Latin Bible

The Bishop of Rome needed a Bible version to keep the newly-converted pagans from northern Europe submissive to such doctrines as papal supremacy, transubstantiation, purgatory, celibacy of the priesthood, vigils, worship of relics, and the burning of daylight candles. Therefore, he turned to Jerome, a renowned scholar, to produce the authoritative Catholic Latin Bible. Jerome perused the library of Eusebius at Caesarea, where Origen's manuscripts had been preserved, along with a Greek Bible of the Vaticanus type. Both of these versions had the apocrypha, which Protestants reject as spurious (Tobit, Wisdom, Judith, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, 1st and 2nd Maccabees). Jerome, however, included them in his Vulgate of A.D. 338. For one thousand years, Jerome's Vulgate dominated Western Europe. Only the pesky Waldenses in the Alps, and the original Celtic Church of Britain, rejected the Vulgate. Even Catholic scholars pointed out the thousands of errors in the corrupt Vulgate, but there were few to challenge the Catholic Bible of Jerome.

When the Turks took Constantinople in 1453, Greek Orthodox scholars fled with copies of the original Greek New Testaments, and some of them came into Europe. Erasmus (1516) and other scholars such as Stephens (1550) printed copies of the Greek New Testament, and it became obvious that the Vulgate, based on corrupted Greek texts of the Vaticanus order, had strayed far from the Received Text.

Catholics Defend their Bible translation

Luther, Calvin, and the Protestant Movement had engulfed northern Europe, and threatened to take France and even parts of Italy away from the Papacy. Luther's German Bible was based on the same Greek Text printed by Erasmus. The Catholic Church was running scared, and launched a massive counter reformation. First, the Society of Jesus, the Jesuits, was formed with the express purpose to destroy Protestants and their Bibles based on the Received Text. Jesuits were, and are, bound with an oath to defend the papacy, to lie, steal, assassinate, or do whatever it takes to destroy heretics. The famous Council of Trent, 1545-1563, condemned four anti-Catholic principles which were gaining ground at that time:

"That Holy Scriptures contained all things necessary for salvation, and that it was impious to place apostolic tradition on a level with Scripture," "That certain books accepted as canonical in the Vulgate were apocryphal and not canonical," "That Scripture must be studied in the original languages, and that there were errors in the Vulgate," "That the meaning of Scripture is plain, and that it can be understood without commentary with the help of Christ's Spirit."

The Catholic Church first tried to undermine the Bible, then destroy the Protestant doctrines. The Catholic-Protestant controversy was basically a battle for the Bible.

William Tyndale translated Erasmus's Greek Text into English. To counter this version, the Jesuit order of the Catholic Church sponsored the 1582 Rheims-Douay version, based on the Vulgate, in order to push Catholic control of the British Isles. In spite of the Spanish Armada and infiltrating Jesuits, English Protestantism stood firm against the wiles of Rome. A more readable English translation appeared in 1611, at the behest of King James. It has been called the most beautiful piece of literature in any language, and for 300 years served as a bulwark against the papacy.

When Napoleon's armies conquered Rome in the early 1800s, it appeared that the Holy Roman Empire and the power of the papacy was dead. In reality, it was only wounded, and would soon come back to life. Again, the battle for the Bible would be the key struggle.

J.H. Newman founded the Oxford Movement in 1833. Originally of the Church of England, Newman promoted Catholic ideas within the Anglican Church. Newman's Roman theology took over Oxford, the bastion of the Anglican Church. When he traveled to Rome in 1833, he asked the Pope upon what terms the Church of Rome could receive back the Church of England to her bosom. The answer was: accept the doctrine of the Council of Trent! Newman and his associates believed that Protestantism, not Catholicism, was the Antichrist. Newman's enormous influence in Britain led many to doubt the veracity of the Authorized Bible, as he preferred the Vulgate. Using the allegorizing method of Origen, Newman declared that God never intended the Bible to teach doctrines, and that Church tradition was equal to or better than the Bible. Newman studied Catholic fathers and Gnostics night and day. In 1845 he left the Anglican Church to become a Catholic Cardinal.

Cardinal Newman greatly influenced the British revision committees, which were packed with higher critics and Catholic- leaning individuals such as Westcott, Hort, and others. Westcott's Greek New Testament was based upon the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts. Dr. Philip Schaff, who headed the American Bible revision committee, was a friend of Newman, and was on such good terms with the papacy that he sought and obtained unusual privileges to study Vatican documents, receiving almost unrestricted access to the Vatican Library and Archives. As a result, the 1881 Revised English Version was met with rejoicing among Catholics, as a vindication of their Rheims-Douay version based on the Vulgate. Blow after blow, the new English version supported the doctrines of Rome.

An example is Revelation 22:14. In the King James, this verse is, "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life," while the Revised version says, "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life." The New International Version likewise used "wash their robes," rather than "do His commandments."

Another example is Mark 7:18-19. In the King James, we have, "Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?" The bodily digestive system digests food, using nutrients for the body, and eliminates the waste products. Food does not pollute the mind.

In their attack against the law of clean and unclean meats, the Revised and NIV translations, based on minority Greek texts, translate this passage so as to do away with God's law. "'Are you so dull?' he asked. 'Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him "unclean"? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.' (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean')," Mark 7:18-19, NIV.

Translation after translation has since followed. All packed in favor of the corrupt texts from Origen and others who had mangled the Word of God. Now the field of victory belongs to the Catholic Church.

Only two types of Bibles

There are actually only two types of Bibles, those based on the majority of the Greek manuscripts, and those based on texts from Egypt and Rome. The early Syrian Church had the Bible translated into Syrian about A.D. 150. This version is known as the Peshitto (meaning "correct," or "simple"). Even today, it generally follows the Received Text. Early Latin translations of the Bible were used in the British Isles, northern Italy, and southern France, long before these primitive Christians came into contact with the Church of Rome. Called the "Italic" or Old Latin version, the Waldenses in particular resisted the Vulgate as being spurious. Until at least the late thirteenth century, the Waldensian version held out strongly against the Vulgate. The fourth century scholar Helvidius, of northern Italy, accused Jerome of using corrupt Greek manuscripts. Waldensians in the Alps claimed their church began about A.D. 120, and their Italic Bible was said to be translated directly from the Greek no later than A.D. 157. Allix reports that the Italic Church of the Waldenses receive only "what is written in the Old and New Testament. They say, that the Popes of Rome, and other priests, have depraved the Scriptures by their doctrines and glosses."

The promulgation of the Received Text is largely the work of the Waldenses. John Calvin was a relative to Waldenses in the valley of St. Martin. Olivetan, a Waldensian pastor, translated the Received Text into French, later edited by his relative Calvin. The Olivetan became the basis of the Geneva Bible in English, the leading version in England in 1611 when the KJV appeared.

The two-thousand-year-old contest between the Church of Rome and those she calls "heretics," is basically a battle for the Bible. When you see a church that abandons the King James Version and begins to uphold the New International Version or other modern perversions of the scriptures, you know which side they are on.

If you believe that the Pope is an Antichrist, and you are in absolute opposition to the Council of Trent, then you stand with the historic teaching of the Waldenses, and the Church of the East. You appreciate the King James Bible, and others based on the Received Text.

Benjamin G. Wilkinson's excellent book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, originally published in 1930, provides much of the information covered in this article. This special book is available from: Giving & Sharing. Wilkinson shows how text after text has been perverted by the modern revised versions, which are based on corrupted Greek manuscripts. This is not a peripheral issue, but an essential core concept. If you believe modern higher critics, who believe in evolution as Hort did, then you do not have the reliable Word of God, and there is no basis for the Biblical faith.

The Bible says that the "little horn," would "cast down the truth to the ground," Daniel 8:11. Jesus said in John 17:17, "Thy word is truth." Modern translations which pervert the Word of God are a direct fulfillment of this prophecy. You do not need to go through a priest or hierarchy to have contact with the Almighty. The Savior reminds us, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life," John 6:63.

Peter Ruckman, a Baptist preacher, has in recent years created a twisted concept known as "King James Version Onlyism." He teaches that the KJV is error free, is the ONLY Word of God, and that all other translations are of the devil. He plays into the hands of Romanists by his absurd extremism. The King James does not always stick to the Textus Receptus. The KJV does have errors, some of which are corrected in modern versions such as the NIV (e.g. Acts 12:4, where the KJV erroneously has "Easter," while the NIV and modern versions, and the Textus Receptus, have "Passover"). The Battle for the Bible should stick to a discussion of the merits of the two competing streams of Greek texts of the New Testament: the Textus Receptus (majority Greek texts), and the Vaticanus/Sinaiticus (Origen, Westcost and Hort) text.

Wilkinson provides many comparisons that leave us no doubt that the Textus Receptus is better.

[German Stallion]

Your statement or the one you pasted says this: "The KJV does have errors, some of which are corrected in modern versions such as the NIV (e.g. Acts 12:4, where the KJV erroneously has "Easter," while the NIV and modern versions, and the Textus Receptus, have "Passover"). The Battle for the Bible should stick to a discussion of the merits of the two competing streams of Greek texts of the New Testament: the Textus Receptus (majority Greek texts), and the Vaticanus/Sinaiticus (Origen, Westcost and Hort) text. "

People are quick to attack the Bible and I accept that, but the arguement is let the Bible defend itself. Taking verses out of context is often a way some try and prove the Bible Wrong. The context of this passages quoted above shows that there is an answer. Passover is wrong, Easter is right. Here is the reason.

It has been a question asked by many: Isn't "Easter" in Acts 12:4 a mistranslation of the word "pascha" and should it be translated as "passover"? Here is the answer: No, "pascha" is properly translated "Easter" in Acts 12:4 as the following explanation will show.
The Greek word which is translated "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is the word "pascha". This word appears twenty-nine times in the New Testament. Twenty-eight of those times the word is rendered "Passover" in reference to the night when the Lord passed over Egypt and killed all the firstborn of Egypt (Exodus 12:12), thus setting Israel free from four hundred years of bondage.
The many opponents to the concept of having a perfect Bible have made much of this translation of "pascha".
Coming to the word "Easter" in the Bible, they seize upon it imagining that they have found proof that the Bible is not perfect. They are wrong. Easter, as we know it, comes from the ancient pagan festival of Astarte. Also known as Ishtar (pronounced "Easter"). This festival has always been held late in the month of April. It was, in its original form, a celebration of the earth "regenerating" itself after the winter season. The festival involved a celebration of reproduction. For this reason the common symbols of Easter festivities were the rabbit (the same symbol as "Playboy" magazine), and the egg. Both are known for their reproductive abilities. At the center of attention was Astarte, the female deity. She is known in the Bible as the "queen of heaven" (Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-25). She is the mother of Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14) who was also her husband! These perverted rituals would take place at sunrise on Easter morning (Ezekiel 8:13-16). From the references in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, we can see that the true Easter has never had any association with Jesus Christ.
This is where the problem seems to arise: Even though the Jewish passover was held in mid April (the fourteenth) and the pagan festival Easter was held later the same month, how do we know that Herod was referring to Easter in Acts 12:4 and not the Jewish passover? If he was referring to the passover, the translation of "pascha" as "Easter" is incorrect. If he was indeed referring to the pagan holyday (holiday) Easter, and King James Bible has the correct reading.
To unravel the confusion concerning "Easter" in verse 4, we must look at the context. The key which unlocks the puzzle is found not in verse 4, but in verse 3. (Then were the days of unleavened bread... ") To secure the answer we must find the relationship of the passover to the days of unleavened bread. Keep in mind that Peter was arrested during the "days of unleavened bread" (Acts 12:3).
Our investigation will need to start at the first Passover. This was the night in which the LORD smote all the firstborn in Egypt. The Israelites were instructed to kill a lamb and strike its blood on the two side posts and the upper door post (Exodus 12:4,5). Let us now see what the Bible says concerning the first passover, and the days of unleavened bread.
Exodus 12:13-18: "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. 17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even."
Here in Exodus 12:13 we see how the passover got its name. The LORD said that He would "pass over" all of the houses which had the blood of the lamb marking the door.
After the passover (Exodus 12:13,14), we find that seven days shall be fulfilled in which the Jews were to eat unleavened bread. These are the days of unleavened bread!
In verse 18 we see that dates for the observance were April 14th through the 21st.
This religious observance is stated more clearly in Numbers 28:16-18: "And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation;ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:"
In verse 16 we see that the passover is only considered to be the 14th of the month. On the next morning, the 15th begins the "days of unleavened bread."
Deuteronomy 16:1-8: "Observe the month of Abib (April), and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.
3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction: for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee:
6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7 And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein."
Here in Deuteronomy we see again that the passover is sacrificed on the first night (Deuteronomy 16:1). It is worth noting that the passover was to be celebrated in the evening (vs.6) not at sunrise (Ezekiel 8:13-16).
In II Chronicles 8:13 we see that the feast of unleavened bread was one of the three Jewish feasts to be kept during the year.
II Chronicles 8:13: "Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles."
Whenever the passover was kept, it always preceded the feast of unleavened bread. In II Chronicles 30 some Jews who were unable to keep the passover in the first month were allowed to keep it in the second. But the dates remained the same.
II Chronicles 30:l5,21: "Then they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the second month: and the priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought in the burnt offerings into the house of the LORD. And the children of lsrael that were present at Jerusalem kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with great gladness: and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, singing with loud instruments unto the LORD."
Ezra 6:19,22: "And the children of the captivity kept the passover upon the fourteenth day of the first month. And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy: for the LORD had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel."
We see then, from studying what the BIBLE has to say concerning the subject that the order of events went as follows:
(1) On the 14th of April the lamb was killed. This is the passover. No event following the 14th is ever referred to as the passover.
(2) On the morning of the 15th begins the days of unleavened bread, also known as the feast of unleavened bread.
It must also be noted that whenever the passover is mentioned in the New Testament, the reference is always to the meal, to be eaten on the night of April 14th not the entire week. The days of unleavened bread are NEVER referred to as the Passover. (It must be remembered that the angel of the Lord passed over Egypt on one night, not seven nights in a row.
Now let us look at Acts 12:3,4: "And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."
Verse 3 shows that Peter was arrested during the days of unleavened bread (April 15-2 1). The Bible says: "Then were the days of unleavened bread." The passover (April 14th) had already come and gone. Herod could not possibly have been referring to the passover in his statement concerning Easter. The next Passover was a year away! But the pagan holiday of Easter was just a few days away. Remember! Herod was a pagan Roman who worshipped the "queen of heaven". He was NOT a Jew. He had no reason to keep the Jewish passover. Some might argue that he wanted to wait until after the passover for fear of upsetting the Jews. There are two grievous faults in this line of thinking.
First, Peter was no longer considered a Jew. He had repudiated Judaism. The Jews would have no reason to be upset by Herod's actions.
Second, he could not have been waiting until after the passover because he thought the Jews would not kill a man during a religious holiday. They had killed Jesus during passover (Matthew 26:17-19,47). They were also excited about Herod's murder of James. Anyone knows that a mob possesses the courage to do violent acts during religious festivities, not after.
In further considering Herod's position as a Roman, we must remember that the Herods were well known for celebrating (Matthew 14:6-11). In fact, in Matthew chapter 14 we see that a Herod was even willing to kill a man of God during one of his celebrations.
It is elementary to see that Herod, in Acts 12, had arrested Peter during the days of unleavened bread, after the passover. The days of unleavened bread would end on the 21st of April. Shortly after that would come Herod's celebration of pagan Easter. Herod had not killed Peter during the days of unleavened bread simply because he wanted to wait until Easter. Since it is plain that both the Jews (Matthew 26:17- 47) and the Romans (Matthew 14:6-11) would kill during a religious celebration, Herod's opinion seemed that he was not going to let the Jews "have all the fun ". He would wait until his own pagan festival and see to it that Peter died in the excitement.
Thus we see that the translators of the Bible were CORRECT to translate "pascha" as "Easter". It most certainly did not refer to the Jewish passover..

This is taken from a book boy Sam Gipp called THE ANSWER BOOK. I have edited it for use on this forum. Forgive the length. We are quick to believe what people write and often slow to study and find an answer. Thanks again for listening. GS

[NeXus]

damn,

i think you killed this thread
:s

[mazdab8r]

Please destroy this thread.

[NeXus]

Destroy it? Why?

[witty]

whoa i missed out, this was a good debate. well i think everyone should read the bible, just for its philosophical value, by the same token everyone should eastern religions, even if your a devout christian, you will be a better person for it. and as for the information provided by nexus on relativistic quantum physics. i suggest everyone interested reads the tao of physics. you will learn a good amount of theoretical physics, and eastern mysticism, and parallels between them. not to say it proves it, im not trying to convert anyone. But its thought provoking. I dont believe that god created us, but no one will ever prove where the universe came from, bc you have to either believe A. the underlying quantum field that everything you percieve is a manifestation of including the dimension of time, is just here and always has, and theres no reason or explanation for it, it just exists, and thats it. or B. God made it. or C. somewhere in this very intangible theoretical realm of science there is proof that nothingness came about after trillions of zillions of years, even though time is an arbitrary and relative constant, that didnt even exist yet. or some other lame theory.
Anyways u see what i mean, i believe in evolution and all that other crap, but why is any of it here. basically A or B pick whichever one makes you happy.

[NeXus]

I hate when some people believe in religion just because they fear God and they fear the unknown. Im not talking about anyone here though.

Whats wrong with saying I dont know and only time will tell?
So live life to its fullest.

I bet God wouldnt like the fact that we PE because thats not natural and not the way he made us. I mean your not even supposed to jerk-off.

Religion teaches kindness to your fellow man, which is good. But I think people should be good to each other for other reasons. And not because its the "Christian" thing to do.

I think we will one day find out the meaning of everything. We just need to fund research more or better. I got a hunch that this endless quest to find meaning might just be that life is really meaningless. All you gotta do is enjoy the finer things in life that make if beautiful. Like PE, sex, music, friends, laughter, entertainment, family, love,....the list goes on and on.....

[German Stallion]

Hey NeXus, you wrote:

I bet God wouldnt like the fact that we PE because thats not natural and not the way he made us. I mean your not even supposed to jerk-off.

And, what makes you say that? You must have a reason for believing this or saying it. I honestly want to know what reason you have. GS

[NeXus]

Well as you may or may not know, I dont really believe in religion. Im not saying I dont believe in a creator, but I dont think he writes books like the Bible which is man-made.

Lets say Catholism is the "right" religion. The Pope tells us not to have pre-marital sex and not to masturbate and blah, blah, blah.

All Im sayin is, if that were the case, God probably wouldnt like PE because we are changin ourself and its not natural. And most of us use PE to enhance sex, which is only supposed to be w/ a wife of holy marriage. I bet every one of us has had pre-marital sex. According to God, thats a sin. And we use PE to enhance and enjoy this "sin".

[German Stallion]

Hi NeXus, I find it very interesting that many of our thoughts about God are based on religion. I do understand what you say but the Pope and Catholic teachings but remember, they don't necessaryily reflect the thinking of God. So, when we think that this or that teaching is God, we now base our like or dislike of God based on man's teaching. It is a big circle that ends up a mess. I obviously disagree that the bible is man made, rather it says it is God breathed, or inspired by God, written by men. Supposedly men wrote what God told them to write. Anyway, that is another subject.
About improving ourselves, be it by PE or some other area, what is wrong with that? Why would God tell you you can't improve yourself. You you have an arm that doesn't work right be it from a birth problem or an accident and you work to improve the arm, so you can better work your arm, why would God object to that. Our concept of God is warped. At least I think it is. I don't see anything in the Bible that tells me not to improve myself or even masterbate. The passage about Onan is misunderstood and misinterpreted so that is not a valid passage. About pre marital sex...that is an individual thing. God gives some guidelines and principles that will help man in his life. You can choose to not do them and the results you obtain are yours and can't be blamed on God. The bible in one of the commandments says that we should not commit adultry. The reason is for the unity in the home. A home can't be stable if the man or woman are out there swapping spouses. Some might be able to do it, but most can't so to maintain a home or marriage, this principle is one God says you would be wise to follow. It is not any different than obeying traffic laws. For the good and safety of others, you are better if you obey. If you don't, and you drive through stop signs and someone gets killed or in an accident, others as well as you, bear the brunt or hurt from disobeying the principles or rules. Thou shalt not steal is another. What kind of a society would we have if we just take what we want. The laws of the land forbid stealing. Go ahead and steal, but pay the price or cost of your disobeying. It is not God who punished you. You can't blame God when you get caught for stealing and put in the jailhouse. God told you not to do it and if you do, you will not contribute to the well being of society. Sex and God is a big subject but any or most of His rules, laws or what ever you want to call them are not for getting his Favor or blessing, but to keep you out of trouble. I personally didn't have premarital sex, not that I didn't want to, but just didn't. The wife and I been married 41 years and faithful to each other. I would say it has been a good match. We are bonded together. Why she has put up with me all these years is beyond me, but we decided together that would be the way it is. She keeps me happy and I keep her happy so we don't have a sexual desire to go elsewhere. I do PE to make myself a better lover and keep her happy, and it is working. Again, I don't believe youare are going to find any statements that you apease God or met His requirements or obtain His merit when you to do this or that for HIM. Keeping my marrige together is a goal I have and I chose to obey some of the rules of the Bible for that purpose. There are a lot of dietary laws in the Bible too, that are for man's betterment. They don't say you are to do this to merit God's favor, they are for your betterment. I don't necessaryily agree or disagree. I sure don't keep them. I personally like some of the food God says in the diet sections that would be better not to eat. So, if I have a problem it is my problem, not God's. Why blame God, and I am not saying that you are, but many do blame God for what we set ourselves up and get. This is the end of this long post: God has made full complete provison for us to be at peace with Him, but it surely isn't via anything that we do. If it was our efforts, we would never make it, but it is by his grace and love. The God of the Bible is not the God of religion or the God of man's making. Again, thanks for listening. GS

[Shafty]

I believe that aliens are watching us. Kinda like we're their ant farm.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :D

I haven't bothered to read through all of these posts, and even though I could write a full ten page essay on my personal beliefs I'll spare you the trouble of having to read it. I think there's enough material here on this subject already.

Let's just say that I don't believe in the bible or the version of christianity that it promotes.Nor do I believe in the god of any other religion, because IF an almight creator of time and space exists, there can only be one of his/her/its kind.

You know what they say, the more intelligent a person is, the less likely it is they will be religious. It is just plain stupid to live your whole life in guilt and fear over some concept that man himself has created.

And just think for a second about the universe as a whole. There MUST be thousands if not millions of civilizations much more advanced than us out there somewhere (who knows, maybe they have indeed visited us here already).

Again, IF there is a god, then it is the same god for all of us. Human and alien alike. And he/she/it is certainly not something that should be worshipped, or feared, or loved for that matter.
Such a god, or should I say the working wheels of the very fabric of reality, must have a broad perspective on things, and I doubt he reaches out to individual people or life forms. I mean let's face it: we humans are merely ants in the cosmic order of things. God won't reach out to us. He has bigger fish to fry.

GODDAMNIT, I ended up ranting even though I promised myself I'd keep this short! :fight:

[REDZULU2003]

I agree with you - One god for the Universe.

[bigbutnottoo]

I am atheist, but it is irrelevant.

Even If someone could prove that God did exist, I still would not worship him. I am an individualist and I reject self sacrifice.

[whtballa18]

I don't know if this has already been talked about, because I don't have the patience to read ALL the posts, but !

Well reknowned scientists, astronomers, and others regarding the Universe/Big Bang etc do not deny the existence of some sort of intelligent design in the universe, they say it's more likely to dive in a random point in the ocean and find Atlantis then to have the equilibrium and harmony of nature's forces... or something smart like that.

Here is a good link for yall regarding the subject

http://www.powertochange.com/questions/qna7.html

[ItsMeAgain]

...hhmmm.

It's not a question on believing. It's more an answer of just being! It's no secret that our existence is based on unicity (unified field of theory)... life is constant in it's giving... it creates therefore we exist.

Taking that same idea and applying it to the "creator" one would end up in the same arena of the so-called question.

Hence: The belief in G_D is constant for which I live now, as I create I birth live into something else. As it is above so shall it be below!

[pumaz]

You can't deny microevolution, its been witnessed and recorded as occuring in modern times. In fact, most creationists who aren't ignorant even agree that it occurs.

http://www.rae.org/accept.html

[pumaz]

The reason I am skeptical about a god, at least in the Christian sense is that there are a number of things that don't add up for me.

God is said to know us before he creates us and he intentionally gave humans free will. Now if God truly knew me before he created me then he knows that I would be inclined to not believe in him; therefore, if God exists he has created me and doomed me to eternal damnation.

God can also not be a benevolent in any sense of the word. He commands that we shall not kill, yet he does not follow his own guidelines. If you believe the story of Noah, then you also must recognize that God is a murderer of epic proportions. It is said that he knows people before he creates them and he purposely gives them free will, yet they failed to obey so he whiped the slate clean.

BTW, the Bible is riddled with contradictions.
http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html

Even if it was God's word, its not anymore. Thousands of years of translation have turned it into a work of man. If it were actually a divine text, there would be no debate on the meaning. The word of an omnipotent being would be infallible and there would be no misconception of the message. The Bible as we know it is no more then a good storybook which doubles as a guide on morals.

[pumaz]

Originally posted by German Stallion
Hi Bob.....Fossil records, so called, are based on predetermined criteria....namely that they are millions of years old. The theory that things happen like they have for millions of years without a glitch does not wash. In fact, you can't have a fossil unless something catastrophic happened. Fossils are evidence of things not happening in the norm. So, that fossil from Iowa is evidence of something happening in that sea that once was in Iowa. But what caused it to become a fossil. If it died today, it would not become a fossil unless there was a catastrophe.

German, fossilization is nothing but a mineralization of an organic tissue.

Heres a fossilized cowboy's leg found in a boot made no earlier then the 1950s. What catastrophe let this one happen?

http://informationcentre.tripod.com/boot.html

The link even suggests that dinosaulr fossils may not necessarily be as old as we commonly think.

Heres one that I'd like to hear your response though. If the Earth is not millions of years old how do you explain plate tectonics? The world's landmass used to be joined together. This is difficult to deny as even by looking at a map you can see how the coastilines match up. Fossil records show matching species on continents that are now seperated by a vast Ocean. We know the current rate of seperation, how do creationists debunk this evidence that the world is very old?

[pumaz]

Originally posted by NeXus
i just want to make point quick before i ask you guys something else. When Chris Columbus sailed to America 200 years ago, everyone except a few seriously believed that the world is flat and that he would fall to ultimate death be falling off the face of the world.

1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue, its been a bit more then 200 years, but I do agree there is a whole lot of stuff that was blindly accepted as fact that is now easily dismissed as legend. A lot of stuff can be passed on as fact when the vast majority of people traveled no more then 10 miles beyond their birth place until the 1900s.

Believing that God exists because the Bible exists is like saying Grendel exists, because the story Beowulf exists.

[pumaz]

Originally posted by MightyBigWeiner
also, just to add onto the discussion about why we don't have fins. because mammals are believed to have originated from little possum-like creatures. of course all life originated in the water, but thats where evolution/natural selection comes into place. These small possum creatures have developed into bigger creatures, then monkeys, apes, and finally humans. hence we have that bone in our asses (damn, forgot what its called), that can often give us troubles.


Excellent point. Vestigial organs and bones are strong evidence of evolution. Why do whales have a pelvis bone?

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by pumaz
The link even suggests that dinosaur fossils may not necessarily be as old as we commonly think.

It uses the usual tactic of quoting "everyone says" that fossils take millions of years to form.

Actually mineralization probably occurs in a few years. So that isn't a useful metric of age.

The age of fossils is usually determined by the strata they are in. And the age of strata are usually determined by certain radiological markers.

[Scrub Ducky]

I believe in god.
I'm christian actually,or at least I try to be, I'm not a very good one.

[NeXus]

I was watching public tv and they had this NOVA on space and shit. They said so far they have discovered many galaxies but none of the planets like Earths distance to the sun, so they are unable to support life.

They talked about how they use the Hubble Space Telescopes to figure out the paths of stars and comets. And they found a comet, that in about 100,000 years, it will collide with Earth. But they said by the time it even gets relatively close, they will blow it up or just set it off its path so it misses Earth.

They also said that its about 1.5 times bigger than the comet that killed off all the dinosaurs. Kinda crazy, huh?

[Supra]

I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ With all my heart.

[Xmetal]

There is no God and anyone thinking so is in a false state of hope and needs to grow up and read between the lines. Science (knowledge acquired through experience). Bible (the holy book of bullshit, old and new).

[BANANAxBOY]

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

(2 Corinthians 11:3)

WORD

[BANANAxBOY]

It is so easy to find a reason to not believe, what if you really wanted to? Some may think "I don't even want to believe in such .........BULLSHIT>>>>>>>>"

If for some reason there was a God and a Satan I think Satan would use everything in him to prevent us from knowing God, I think the bible says this too which kinda sounds legitimate, the bible says that "Satan" has a lot of power and that he is a bastard with it. If there were a God He would probably know better than to just address the world in person otherwise He would have already, or maybe he already did in the past and we still refuse to believe. If I were God and had parted the Red Sea, set a bush on fire and didnt let it consume, flooded the Earth, sent plagues of frogs and locusts across the land to prove a point, and still most people wouldnt believe in me I would be getting pretty tired of trying to prove myself. What would it take for one to believe in Him? I think that If God spoke to thousands of us and performed a miracle right in front of us we would still find a reason NOT to believe. "It was probably just the wierd weather we've been having recently", or "ah, David Blain's done that trick before". If there were a Satan and this was his job, he is doing fairly well, I will credit him for that.

Its hard to say.

[bjembe]

After all that has been said, I cannot resist but to add my comment on the subject;

First of all I want to thank, every believers who have take time (in some cases so much time) to post on this thread. I think it really goes a long way in helping non-believers to consider and change their hearts for the better of themselves. Special mention to GS, you are a very, very wise man. Appreciate all your comments you have put forward.

Now, let’s get started, people do not believe in GOD because of
1. FEAR and 2. Ignorance.

Why the fear? Because those people that has been exposed to the bible or some sort of religion in their life does not want to abide by the rules of God as per the Bible. Why? Because it’s easy to live life without rules and boundaries, for example that’s why teenagers rebel against their parents. They want to do what they want, but a parent being older and wiser wants to guide their child on the right path and therefore set certain rules and boundaries.

People fear GOD, they fear to believe, because again they do not want to live by the rules (GOD commandments). Some people rather blaspheme the bible; pretend it is all bullshit and rather believed in men THEORY or even aliens.

Why some choose against GOD? Because God created man Free and as long as Satan, devil or which other way you prefer to call it, there will be the temptation to go against Goodwill.

In terms of Ignorance; some people are born and raised in family where they are not exposed to any religion. They grow up without beliefs and thus why they are quick to discard God, until some of them go through a rough patch in their life and starts to question and finding answers, leading them to God. People does not acknowledge GOD when they are living a good life, it’s only when they down and out (e.g lose their homes, jobs, loved ones) that they turn to GOD.

At the end of the day, all I want to say is; we cannot argue against GOD or the Bible. It’s there for us to live a better life without evil. We human beings think we can outsmart our Creator, but we just cannot, it’s just simply too complex to the point of unexplainable, to our ability to understand our existence.

In the mean time, what we can do is; do good things to one another, help one another and love one another. Choose to believe in GOD, all his asking is obey his commandments, which is made up of good things. Because, at the end of our last day on earth, the SPIRIT lives on and nothing else; the body will rot away along with our hard earned inches :). Life continues after death in SPIRIT and again we just cannot argue against that.

Save your SPIRIT and choose to believe, open your hearts, HAVE FAITH, what have you got to lose by obeying and doing good things?

[Phoenix22]

Evolution is an impossibility. Pure and simple, there is absolutely no merit, evidence or possibility of evolution. If you have been lied to, it is about evolution. As far as God is concerned, certainly there is God. Not gods. Our whole universe points to a creator, not happenstance or chance. Chance is out, God is in. As far as religion, now that is another story. Religion, traditions and systems are man made. The bible account of creation is just that, an account. Not a story, not a made up system, just records. The bible is history, HIS story, Gods story of mankind. No inconsistency, no hiding facts. The fact that the bible tells us all of mans failings as well as success, give it credibility. Glad to have this discussion. GS

Quoting an old post.

Religion has and will always be a way to control the masses. I mean, what better way to control an unruly kingdom than to instill fear in the hearts of it's citizens by saying that if you do not believe in god, you will go to a place where you will be punished for eternity? As stated in a previous post, there are numerous contradictions in the bible. Did you know that just about every aspect of todays religions can be traced back to the Egyptians?

There is nothing worse than someone who will blindly follow religion. It is human nature to question, but if you question god to someone that blindly follows some religion, you get scolded. How about the numerous priests that molest little kids? Are you going to believe "the word of god" from someone who gets his jollies off by having a 7 year old suck his dick? No. But, according to a majority of priests and preachers, they were chosen by god. So the supreme being is going to enlist a freak who abuses little children for his sexual pleasure? I think not. Just another contradiction with religion. Or how about the fact that you can kill as many people as you want, but by saying a simple prayer you can redeem yourself and go to heaven and kick back in the clouds?

It's a shame that we as a society will draw pity upon someone who has murdered a little child because while he is in prison serving a life sentence, he found god. Depending on the state you're in, that has a big role in determining if you get awarded parole.

GS, the bible is a story itself. There were no records, but the accounts of a few people all with a common goal. Control the masses. Control the wealth. Control the direction your country/empire will go by influencing the king.

Evolution isn't always a change in physical shape. The human form has remained similar for the last 6,000 years I believe, maybe more. Over the course of that 6,000 we have made huge advancements in technology. We've evolved to survive. We've evolved to thrive. More notably, the advancements we've made in the last 600 years. Like someone else has said, just 400 year agos people thought the world was flat and if you sailed far enough in one direction, you'd fall off. Which now that we look back we find that extremely odd and stupid. People used to fight with spears and clubs. Now we fight with depleted uranium rounds and UAVs. But that's right, evolution is bullshit according to you.

You really are just one big walking contradiction to everything in the bible.

http://conventionfans.today.com/files/2009/02/milla.jpg

^ That's the supreme being

[roddthewadd64]

Im a practioner of the sumerian faith so i believe in the gods of old..not just one deity.

[SillyStick]

Quoting an old post.

Religion has and will always be a way to control the masses. I mean, what better way to control an unruly kingdom than to instill fear in the hearts of it's citizens by saying that if you do not believe in god, you will go to a place where you will be punished for eternity? As stated in a previous post, there are numerous contradictions in the bible. Did you know that just about every aspect of todays religions can be traced back to the Egyptians?

There is nothing worse than someone who will blindly follow religion. It is human nature to question, but if you question god to someone that blindly follows some religion, you get scolded. How about the numerous priests that molest little kids? Are you going to believe "the word of god" from someone who gets his jollies off by having a 7 year old suck his dick? No. But, according to a majority of priests and preachers, they were chosen by god. So the supreme being is going to enlist a freak who abuses little children for his sexual pleasure? I think not. Just another contradiction with religion. Or how about the fact that you can kill as many people as you want, but by saying a simple prayer you can redeem yourself and go to heaven and kick back in the clouds?

It's a shame that we as a society will draw pity upon someone who has murdered a little child because while he is in prison serving a life sentence, he found god. Depending on the state you're in, that has a big role in determining if you get awarded parole.

GS, the bible is a story itself. There were no records, but the accounts of a few people all with a common goal. Control the masses. Control the wealth. Control the direction your country/empire will go by influencing the king.

Evolution isn't always a change in physical shape. The human form has remained similar for the last 6,000 years I believe, maybe more. Over the course of that 6,000 we have made huge advancements in technology. We've evolved to survive. We've evolved to thrive. More notably, the advancements we've made in the last 600 years. Like someone else has said, just 400 year agos people thought the world was flat and if you sailed far enough in one direction, you'd fall off. Which now that we look back we find that extremely odd and stupid. People used to fight with spears and clubs. Now we fight with depleted uranium rounds and UAVs. But that's right, evolution is bullshit according to you.

You really are just one big walking contradiction to everything in the bible.

http://conventionfans.today.com/files/2009/02/milla.jpg

^ That's the supreme being

Wow...you pretty much said what I believe. Not only do they want to control out of fear...but it also pushes good ole divide and conquer! I am far less worried about if there is a god or not, then the few powerful elite out there controlling our world.

[rivieraman71]

!

[rivieraman71]

I believe that there is someting, what? I don't know. I feel it is to much to comprehend and understand, and even if the answer was given to us we probably would question it anyway. Like I said, I believe in something. It may be an ora, spirit, or just mother nature herself.

I went to church for 1.5 yrs and I have to honestly say there were people of everykind in that church, good, bad, 2 faced, etc just like the world outside it. I believe religion can be both good and bad to a certain degree. I never felt anything when I was there, no presence of God so to speak. Doesn't mean that a God doesn't exist. Maybe it wasn't the right time for me to feel his presence, I can't explain what a higher power would feel like so I just live my life one day at a time.

I have to admit I bought the bible 2 weeks ago and have been reading it straight through. The more I read though the more I find unexplainable and even unbelievable. But I guess that's where faith comes in. Alot of it I don't understand and maybe we aren't supposed to and just accept it for what it is. The bible is based on faith and science is based on theory. Niether can be proven to a certain degree.

[rivieraman71]

I believe that there is someting, what? I don't know. I feel it is to much to comprehend and understand, and even if the answer was given to us we would question it anyway. Like I said, I believe in something. It may be an ora, spirit, or just mother nature herself.

I went to church for 1.5 yrs and I have to honestly say there were people of everykind in that church, good, bad, 2 faced, etc just like the world outside it. I believe religion can be both good and bad to a certain degree. I never felt anything when I was there, no presence of God so to speak. Doesn't mean that a God doesn't exist. MAybe it wasn't the right time for me to feel his presence, I can't explain what a higher power would feel like so I just live my life one day at a time.

I have to admit I bought the bible 2 weeks ago and have been reading it straight through. The more I read thought the more I find unexplainable and even unbelievable. But I guess that's where faith comes in. Alot of it I don't understand and maybe we aren't supposed to and just accept it for what it is. The bible is based on faith and science is based on theory. Niether can be proven to a certain degree.

[rivieraman71]

I believe that there is someting, what? I don't know. I feel it is to much to comprehend and understand, and even if the answer was given to us we would question it anyway. Like I said, I believe in something. It may be an ora, spirit, or just mother nature herself.

I went to church for 1.5 yrs and I have to honestly say there were people of everykind in that church, good, bad, 2 faced, etc just like the world outside it. I believe religion can be both good and bad to a certain degree. I never felt anything when I was there, no presence of God so to speak. Doesn't mean that a God doesn't exist. MAybe it wasn't the right time for me to feel his presence, I can't explain what a higher power would feel like so I just live my life one day at a time.

I have to admit I bought the bible 2 weeks ago and have been reading it straight through. The more I read thought the more I find unexplainable and even unbelievable. But I guess that's where faith comes in. Alot of it I don't understand and maybe we aren't supposed to and just accept it for what it is. The bible is based on faith and science is based on theory. Niether can be proven to a certain degree.

[rivieraman71]

Sorry, didn't mean for it to show up 5 million times, my computer kept locking up.

[Want_that_gain]

God is one of those outdated theories just like evolution.. I believe we are our own God, we chose our own destiny, we chose our own future and our future is directly related to our actions and our behavior.

Religion is one of the most manipulative forms of social conditioning and a very old one at that. People were forced into believing in religion, murdered and sacrificed for the good of a belief, in my opinion this directly contradicts the teaching of the religion itself which makes it hypocrisy at it's finest.

------
Believing in religion and threatening people that do not believe that they will spend eternity in hell, is like a hippy threatening to punch you in the aura!

[rivieraman71]

God is one of those outdated theories just like evolution.. I believe we are our own God, we chose our own destiny, we chose our own future and our future is directly related to our actions and our behavior.

I think a verse from Metallica best describes this. "My lifestyle determines my deathstyle!"

[BANANAxBOY]

God is one of those outdated theories just like evolution.. I believe we are our own God, we chose our own destiny, we chose our own future and our future is directly related to our actions and our behavior.

Religion is one of the most manipulative forms of social conditioning and a very old one at that. People were forced into believing in religion, murdered and sacrificed for the good of a belief, in my opinion this directly contradicts the teaching of the religion itself which makes it hypocrisy at it's finest.

------
Believing in religion and threatening people that do not believe that they will spend eternity in hell, is like a hippy threatening to punch you in the aura!


Just curious, what kind of death and afterlife are you choosing?

[Want_that_gain]

Just curious, what kind of death and afterlife are you choosing?

Well, I'm not really sure if I believe in an after life.. I don't like to think about things I will never actually know the answer too, it's the puzzle of life, like figuring out what came first, the chicken or the egg.

[BANANAxBOY]

I garuntee you that once you stop living, like when your body shuts down from deterioration you will then be in "afterlife mode.

Something gave us life, an explosion in the universe cannot create a miracle, you.

BxB

[Want_that_gain]

I garuntee you that once you stop living, like when your body shuts down from deterioration you will then be in "afterlife mode.

Something gave us life, an explosion in the universe cannot create a miracle, you.

BxB

I don't believe in the big b ang, in fact most of that retarded science can never be proven and never will be so I refuse to accept it as an accurate event when it's impossible to understand what happens to us when we are dead or before we can record being alive.

No one knows what happens when we die, maybe our spirit floats freely in all dimensions or maybe nothing happens, maybe our whole relaity is created inside our brain and when we die reality seizes to exist as our brain does.

It's impossible to guess or believe in anything if there is no evidence to it.

[Krispin]

Blessed is he who has not seen but still believes....

They just tell you that so that you don't feel like a total sucker believing in something that you've never seen or heard or otherwise had demonstrable proof of (or even probabilistic proof of).

[bluetard117]

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd this is where the argument starts. This thread should probably be killed before things get out of hand and hard feelings are forged, instead of hard cocks.

In other words, stop talking about religion, and GET BACK TO JELQING! :D
Surely, God, Buddha, Allah, the people that Star Trekkies worship, all wish you to have a massive dick, to make more little worshipers ;]

[BANANAxBOY]

Its ok to talk about this here bluetard117, this is the "deep thoughts" section. I think we can be respectful about our opinions here.

[BANANAxBOY]

They just tell you that so that you don't feel like a total sucker believing in something that you've never seen or heard or otherwise had demonstrable proof of (or even probabilistic proof of).


I'm a total sucker and I have experienced personally, Jesus. Even if i tell you a cool story of a true miracle i think that you will still find reason to believe otherwise. In my opinion, this feeling of not wanting to hear or believe comes directly from the evil one. His job is to make sure that you don't become a follower of Christ and to do it in a way that you don't notice yourself doing it.

Please understand that i am not saying this for the sake of argument but because i care about you, and i wish that if there were a heaven and hell
that you, and me, and all of us here could go to Heaven. Please exept this as my opinion.

Love BxB

[MAXAMEYES]

In response to this question I usually have to ask for clarification:
"To which particular definition of God are you referring?"

And remember; belief, by its nature and definition, requires no proof, simply belief.

[Krispin]

I'm a total sucker and I have experienced personally, Jesus. Even if i tell you a cool story of a true miracle i think that you will still find reason to believe otherwise. In my opinion, this feeling of not wanting to hear or believe comes directly from the evil one. His job is to make sure that you don't become a follower of Christ and to do it in a way that you don't notice yourself doing it.

Please understand that i am not saying this for the sake of argument but because i care about you, and i wish that if there were a heaven and hell
that you, and me, and all of us here could go to Heaven. Please exept this as my opinion.

Love BxB

Once again, people who believe in God or religion usually use the "evil one" (aka the Devil, Satan, and sometimes Lucifer) to explain why others don't believe also, thus rationalizing the opposition away and not feeling like a total sucker by believing in something that has not been demonstrated or probabilistically confirmed.

[BANANAxBOY]

Once again, people who believe in God or religion usually use the "evil one" (aka the Devil, Satan, and sometimes Lucifer) to explain why others don't believe also, thus rationalizing the opposition away and not feeling like a total sucker by believing in something that has not been demonstrated or probabilistically confirmed.

Once AGAIN I'm a total sucker, but you rationalize a miracle as much as I rationalize "the devil". On many occasions Jesus has demonstrated miracles, not to mention he was still on this earth in front of people just over 2000 years ago. That is why we have the year 2009. In fact, thousands witnessed these miracles!

If you want to know an incredible King then just simply ask Him. Honestly, just ask Him to show himself to you. You will feel weird doing it because there is constant spiritual warfare fighting against you saying that. If you really want to know, you can ask and I think he just might give you a little nudge on the shoulder if you are SINCERE. If you don't want to know, you will likely never know Him.

Please don't take this as me shoving shit down your throat, i feel that you are reading these posts because you are interested, or maybe just for the sake of arguing, but regardless, I just care.

BxB

[MAXAMEYES]

Of what significance is it, if any, that this thread is over six years old, and the original poster hasn't participated in this-the MOS-forum in over five years?

Just a thought.

[Krispin]

Once AGAIN I'm a total sucker, but you rationalize a miracle as much as I rationalize "the devil". On many occasions Jesus has demonstrated miracles, not to mention he was still on this earth in front of people just over 2000 years ago. That is why we have the year 2009. In fact, thousands witnessed these miracles!

If you want to know an incredible King then just simply ask Him. Honestly, just ask Him to show himself to you. You will feel weird doing it because there is constant spiritual warfare fighting against you saying that. If you really want to know, you can ask and I think he just might give you a little nudge on the shoulder if you are SINCERE. If you don't want to know, you will likely never know Him.

Please don't take this as me shoving shit down your throat, i feel that you are reading these posts because you are interested, or maybe just for the sake of arguing, but regardless, I just care.

BxB

No miracles have been confirmed; they're only supported by the perpetuation of belief from one generation to another, building momentum until their origins become unquestionable to those who follow them. Scientology gained millions of converts in 50 years; now multiply that by 40 to get 2000 years and billions and instead of millions of converts for Christianity.

Stop using miracles, the Devil, or "believing without seeing" to rationalize a belief in something for which there is nothing even resembling conclusive proof.

[BANANAxBOY]

No miracles have been confirmed; they're only supported by the perpetuation of belief from one generation to another, building momentum until their origins become unquestionable to those who follow them. Scientology gained millions of converts in 50 years; now multiply that by 40 to get 2000 years and billions and instead of millions of converts for Christianity.

Stop using miracles, the Devil, or "believing without seeing" to rationalize a belief in something for which there is nothing even resembling conclusive proof.

Its ok if you don't want to believe. Who would you like confirmation from?

BxB

[doublelongdaddy]

No miracles have been confirmed; they're only supported by the perpetuation of belief from one generation to another, building momentum until their origins become unquestionable to those who follow them. Scientology gained millions of converts in 50 years; now multiply that by 40 to get 2000 years and billions and instead of millions of converts for Christianity.

Stop using miracles, the Devil, or "believing without seeing" to rationalize a belief in something for which there is nothing even resembling conclusive proof.

In duality there are many ways to create doubts about the actuality of history, science, religion, etc. We can only go on faith in this type of dualistic environment on subjects like God. When deductibility is applied and all duality is eliminated, there is only 1. You, like every other creature, are part of the one. This 'one', that each of us is a part of, is the creator. This tends to take a human form through our dualistic religions but GOD, the 'One' the Creator, 'that which was before time' is of the same form and function of energy for that is what this is. With this said, the energy that created all of this, and all of us, must follow the Law of Energy Conservation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy), essentially making it timeless and eternal much like what many call GOD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God). Following the Mass/Energy Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence), energy and mass are interchangeable, as mass can become energy and energy can become mass. This makes all of mass, the whole of energy. When viewed from this perspective it is easy to see that the creator is the simplest form of energy, pure light, and that energy, GOD, created all of creation. We learn that this creation came from the most dense bit of matter but that creation had to have come from the smallest vibration of energy before what science sees as the BigBang. Once this happened, energy becoming matter, creation ensued and dualistic separation eventually split MAN from GOD.

Thanks to Young's (Young's experiment) work in particle/wave function we know that experiments are bias to the consciousness of the viewer creating big questions around everything we have ever learned up to this point. Nothing is for sure and everything is possible. Consciousness is becoming more and more accepted as the single decision maker in anything and everything that happens.

Who is right? All are right. Who is God? I am God, just like you, because we are a part of that which created us GOD/Energy/Light. How can you ever be sure that all of this, what you see, what you believe is real, all that you can touch, all of history as you have learned it, every book, every bit of knowledge, all that you have ever experienced through ANY of your senses has only happened since you became "CONSCIOUS" of it. ALL of it exists only for you, only in your mind, each and every person, thing, place, time, it is all a mental flicker ONLY for you...You are the light, you are the energy, you are that which you see as God. Why not? It makes more sense than the bullshit science and religion are forcing into every opening in your senses input. When you approach life under the premiss that you MIGHT be God, you live a little bit better...you are a little bit kinder....you give a little bit deeper...you essentially start to realize that "treat your brother like yourself" brings a deeper more realistic perspective. You see all of creation as God, as it exists in YOU...If you are the creator, JUST IN CASE...Create Responsibly.

[Krispin]

In duality there are many ways to create doubts about the actuality of history, science, religion, etc. We can only go on faith in this type of dualistic environment on subjects like God. When deductibility is applied and all duality is eliminated, there is only 1. You, like every other creature, are part of the one. This 'one', that each of us is a part of, is the creator. This tends to take a human form through our dualistic religions but GOD, the 'One' the Creator, 'that which was before time' is of the same form and function of energy for that is what this is. With this said, the energy that created all of this, and all of us, must follow the Law of Energy Conservation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy), essentially making it timeless and eternal much like what many call GOD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God). Following the Mass/Energy Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence), energy and mass are interchangeable, as mass can become energy and energy can become mass. This makes all of mass, the whole of energy. When viewed from this perspective it is easy to see that the creator is the simplest form of energy, pure light, and that energy, GOD, created all of creation. We learn that this creation came from the most dense bit of matter but that creation had to have come from the smallest vibration of energy before what science sees as the BigBang. Once this happened, energy becoming matter, creation ensued and dualistic separation eventually split MAN from GOD.

Thanks to Young's (Young's experiment) work in particle/wave function we know that experiments are bias to the consciousness of the viewer creating big questions around everything we have ever learned up to this point. Nothing is for sure and everything is possible. Consciousness is becoming more and more accepted as the single decision maker in anything and everything that happens.

Who is right? All are right. Who is God? I am God, just like you, because we are a part of that which created us GOD/Energy/Light. How can you ever be sure that all of this, what you see, what you believe is real, all that you can touch, all of history as you have learned it, every book, every bit of knowledge, all that you have ever experienced through ANY of your senses has only happened since you became "CONSCIOUS" of it. ALL of it exists only for you, only in your mind, each and every person, thing, place, time, it is all a mental flicker ONLY for you...You are the light, you are the energy, you are that which you see as God. Why not? It makes more sense than the bullshit science and religion are forcing into every opening in your senses input. When you approach life under the premiss that you MIGHT be God, you live a little bit better...you are a little bit kinder....you give a little bit deeper...you essentially start to realize that "treat your brother like yourself" brings a deeper more realistic perspective. You see all of creation as God, as it exists in YOU...If you are the creator, JUST IN CASE...Create Responsibly.

Just because science has not fully explained the cause of the Big Bang or even completely explained/proven the Big Bang itself does not mean that “God” or any other supernatural, supreme force is automatically confirmed. Also, subjectivity of sense datum complicates arguments asserting God as universal origin and universal supreme because of objective absence. Lastly, if I was God, I would hold myself as supreme in consciousness and ability, but I do not hold myself as such because I comprehend ideas and principles beyond myself and I comprehend abilities and motivations foreign to me (if I was God, no idea or motivation would be foreign to me and I would not comprehend anything greater/ more supreme than my own being).

[Krispin]

Its ok if you don't want to believe. Who would you like confirmation from?

BxB

I know it's okay if I don't want to believe but it's not okay if you believe in something that cannot stand whatsoever without faith or misguided passion. Almost anyone can create a belief system and turn it into a religion, but that does not make it correct or right or true. Faith can be placed in anything: a rock, a toy, a symbol, a book, etc., but confirmation (i.e., validity) of the object of faith does not resolve until a compelling and demonstrable reason is shown to as defense against the counterarguments.

[|<-9x7->|]

I agree with Douglas Adams. People went ballistic and start 'believing' hysterically because they'd not seen anything like Jesus in their own lifetime, who realistically, was someone who got nailed to a tree for suggesting that people should just get along and try to be nice to one another.

I don't believe in anything else the bible says or does; it was first written 500 years after the events contained in the new testament supposedly took place. Given longevity expectations then, thats 10 generations of chinese whispers to inflate a story from a tale to a global religion. The whole 'good way to live your lives' structure of christianity is a good one, which is why so many find it so compelling and will believe in it. Practically no one will believe in Scientology, for example, because we all understand that the principles are much more far fetched than christianity, islam or any other faith.

In the end, faith is a personal choice, whether you are indoctrinated from birth or not, you choose to continue using your faith's tennets or not. Organised religion is to me, a seriously flawed concept - the idea that everyone has to believe the same thing because they come from the same country or live with the same people. It is however, everyone's choice so I let them get on with it.

Me? I consider myself agnostic. Science comes close to explaining the world in which we live, I've studied physics and mathematics and there is a great deal of beauty involved which could point to a higher design. I tend to believe this is just a feeble human mind trying to comprehend something as big as the universe though. We're so small in comparison, the 'grand design' seems so beautiful and therefore, divine.

I'm not so sure.

[BANANAxBOY]

I know it's okay if I don't want to believe but it's not okay if you believe in something that cannot stand whatsoever without faith or misguided passion.

Try and prove that statement.


Almost anyone can create a belief system and turn it into a religion, but that does not make it correct or right or true. Faith can be placed in anything: a rock, a toy, a symbol, a book, etc., but confirmation (i.e., validity) of the object of faith does not resolve until a compelling and demonstrable reason is shown to as defense against the counterarguments.

Try and vilidate what you believe. Then i will consider having no faith in the Lord if you care about me and my well being.

You didn't answer the question, who do you want confirmation from?

[BANANAxBOY]

In duality there are many ways to create doubts about the actuality of history, science, religion, etc. We can only go on faith in this type of dualistic environment on subjects like God. When deductibility is applied and all duality is eliminated, there is only 1. You, like every other creature, are part of the one. This 'one', that each of us is a part of, is the creator. This tends to take a human form through our dualistic religions but GOD, the 'One' the Creator, 'that which was before time' is of the same form and function of energy for that is what this is. With this said, the energy that created all of this, and all of us, must follow the Law of Energy Conservation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy), essentially making it timeless and eternal much like what many call GOD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God). Following the Mass/Energy Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence), energy and mass are interchangeable, as mass can become energy and energy can become mass. This makes all of mass, the whole of energy. When viewed from this perspective it is easy to see that the creator is the simplest form of energy, pure light, and that energy, GOD, created all of creation. We learn that this creation came from the most dense bit of matter but that creation had to have come from the smallest vibration of energy before what science sees as the BigBang. Once this happened, energy becoming matter, creation ensued and dualistic separation eventually split MAN from GOD.

Thanks to Young's (http://Young's experiment) work in particle/wave function we know that experiments are bias to the consciousness of the viewer creating big questions around everything we have ever learned up to this point. Nothing is for sure and everything is possible. Consciousness is becoming more and more accepted as the single decision maker in anything and everything that happens.

Who is right? All are right. Who is God? I am God, just like you, because we are a part of that which created us GOD/Energy/Light. How can you ever be sure that all of this, what you see, what you believe is real, all that you can touch, all of history as you have learned it, every book, every bit of knowledge, all that you have ever experienced through ANY of your senses has only happened since you became "CONSCIOUS" of it. ALL of it exists only for you, only in your mind, each and every person, thing, place, time, it is all a mental flicker ONLY for you...You are the light, you are the energy, you are that which you see as God. Why not? It makes more sense than the bullshit science and religion are forcing into every opening in your senses input. When you approach life under the premiss that you MIGHT be God, you live a little bit better...you are a little bit kinder....you give a little bit deeper...you essentially start to realize that "treat your brother like yourself" brings a deeper more realistic perspective. You see all of creation as God, as it exists in YOU...If you are the creator, JUST IN CASE...Create Responsibly.


In love, why don't I have controll over my digestive system, circulatory system, nervouse system if I, you are God?

BxB

[German Stallion]

I am going to jump in here with some comments. First Christianity is not a FAITH based on only faith. It is FAITH based on fact. If the train is running the engine is FACT; the middle car is Faith and then Feelings. Feelings are the caboose; Faith is the engine..FACT. The Bible is not a book of faith it is a book of FACT. You can find the cities named, you can locate the places described. The people of the bible are historical people. History records the events of Bible teachings. There are ample evidence to prove anything the bible says. I weary of people who say the BIBLE is just another book. It is a FACTUAL; Accurate and trustworthy book. So, when I believe somthing it is not just on blind faith, it is based on facts. That is the whole of the arguement. I base my faith on fact...the fact of Jesus Christ, his birth, his life, his death and his resurrection. Hundreds of people have tried to disprove all this yet his claims are still valid and still true and truth. Truth can't be shoved aside. You can claim anything, but He, Christ was the fulfillment of Bible truth.

Josh McDowell tried to disprove the Resurrection and wrote a book about it called "Evidence that demands a verdict." Then he wrote another book called..."More Evidence that demands a verdict." When he started out searching and seeking for truth he found it.

Often we go about trying to prove something wrong or try to make it agree with our pre concieved ideas then and when we honestly search, we find that we were wrong.

The bible can stand every and any test you want to give it. I don't have to defend it, I just let it, like the "LION" it is, it can defend itself.

Go ahead, give it your best shot....try and destroy it, you lose, it will still be here and you will be dead and buried. Hundreds have tried, and died.

Having said that, each and every one of us has a right and the right to believe what you will. Many in religion do believe with only faith. I am not that way. In the Bible, Thomas was not either. He said, unless I see and touch, I will not beleive. So, Jesus showed himself to Thomas and Thomas did believe and I do believe that he touched, because he was that kind of a man...he wanted proof. Yes, Jesus said, Because you have seen and touch that is good, but blessed are those who believe with out seeing and touching. I don't think it wrong to question, I think that is good. I do think it wrong to believe something just because someone says it. I read hundreds of websites where they say this and that about the bible, never offering any proof, just making blanket statements that it is in error or that it is wrong or mis-translated.

If you study the scriptures, the Bible, you will find they are carefully and accurately copied and translated. That might not be true with some translations which are not translations but rather comentaries, but with most translations they have accuracy in their corner. You can always find fault with something, but if you are looking for truth, the Bible will give you truth. You might not like what you find, but it will be truthful. It is a book that tells both the good and the bad. It didn't and doesn't cover up David's sin with Uriah's wife, it tells you what he suffered and lost because of his sin. It is honest about the Hero's of the Bible and tells it like it is to us who read it. It gives hope for the future and help for the present. Give it and chance and it will change you life. Thanks for listening. GS

[BANANAxBOY]

Like GS said, GIVE IT A CHANCE. If you are willingly ignorant you will not find the truth. Most people are, please don't be one of those people!! I tell you this because I honestly care about all of you amazing, nice people here. The bible is fact, theories are not.

Love BxB

[MAXAMEYES]

A little wisdom from Maimonides:

<TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: left; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=1 cellSpacing=15 cellPadding=15 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Now, we occupy a lowly position, both in space and rank in comparison with the heavenly sphere, and the Almighty is Most High not in space, but with respect to absolute existence, greatness and power.
Quotation of Maimonides (http://www.icelebz.com/quotes/maimonides) </TD></TR><TR><TD>One should see the world, and see himself as a scale with an equal balance of good and evil. When he does one good deed the scale is tipped to the good - he and the world is saved. When he does one evil deed the scale is tipped to the bad - he and the world is destroyed.
Quotation of Maimonides (http://www.icelebz.com/quotes/maimonides) </TD></TR><TR><TD>Teach thy tongue to say 'I do not know,' and thou shalt progress.
Quotation of Maimonides (http://www.icelebz.com/quotes/maimonides) </TD></TR><TR><TD>The risk of a wrong decision is preferable to the terror of indecision.
Quotation of Maimonides (http://www.icelebz.com/quotes/maimonides) </TD></TR><TR><TD>The same is the case with those opinions of man to which he has been accustomed from his youth; he likes them, defends them, and shuns the opposite views.
Quotation of Maimonides (http://www.icelebz.com/quotes/maimonides) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[tigerpushup]

Aliens made us...not some god with white hair and bear....if you dont believe there is proof.I just wanna say that whis modern world what is going is full of LIES.The real knowledge gonna set all of you free.People are so stupid because of this modern material world.People are not spirtual,many of them are just looking for material...
I dont wanna go any further,just i wanna advice all of you guys to watch ZEITGEIST movie(1 its about religion,911 myth and money....2 part is about positive side of future life which it can be if gonna build our minds and go to higher level of our mind).Here is DAVID ICKE, for me he is like president of world,like man who wanna help the people and world but he is to weak.Why because of power of freemasonry and political pigs which rule this world(C.I.A.,Bush familiy,Obama,all of them which are on leader seat)...

I agree with dld,all of us can have GOD in ourselves.GOD like some supernatural inteligence being does exist so high in universe,in some another dimension(i think 7th i am not sure),but i wouldnt call it a GOD,i will call it a KREATOR.

TRUTH IS AROUND US....

SALUTE

[MAXAMEYES]

Bong hits and keyboards....combo from Hell.

[Krispin]

Try and prove that statement.


So you require proof of some things but not of other things? Where's your faith now? Why put faith in water walkers and not put faith in common sense? The proof of my statement follows from basic experience: it's not okay that the religious establishment of the Middle Ages stifled scientific models and pursuits that ran counter to prevailing doctrine because this prolonged primitive conditions of existence, capping human potential and allowing unnecessary death and conquest (Crusades, Inquisition); it's not okay that National Socialist party of antebellum Germany disseminated and indoctrinated millions into a false philosophy of murder and perversion because this resulted in a genocide that tore apart the globe, that was the fodder for the Cold War, the Israeli conflicts, and throngs of other conflicts and discords; it's not okay that continued belief in Intelligent Design or Creationism is often accompanied with a denigration of evolution and the scientific basis behind it because this detracts from social progression into greater understanding and control of our lives, prolonging unnecessary death, unnecessary disease (stem cell research), unnecessary violence between competing religions, etc.

The proof is in the fact that everything the human race has fought to accomplish in the last 500 years, everything technological or philosophical or directional, rests on the firm ground of confirmable and demonstrable science; everything from the computer your using, the monitor you're viewing, the keyboard you're typing on, has been developed in a practical fashion that is separate from the understood concept of faith. Belief in these things has born progress and real fruit to the human condition, while belief in water walkers has born comforting delusions and savage bloodshed. May God (if He or She or It does exist) have mercy on you for supporting such a disease.



Try and vilidate what you believe. Then i will consider having no faith in the Lord if you care about me and my well being.

You didn't answer the question, who do you want confirmation from?

I don't really care where confirmation comes from as long as confirmation presented is defensible. Water walking is not defensible (magic tricks aside) because it is not confirmable or demonstrable; that's why Christians are so big on "believing without seeing," so that followers don't feel like complete suckers going along with something that they have absolutely no confirmation of beyond someone else's word. I'm not saying that walking on water is impossible- I have no proof of that. What I am saying is that there is no proof to believe in the positive, i.e., believe that a water walker existed in the past beyond a written account that is not demonstrably provable or memorably confirmable.

[Krispin]

I am going to jump in here with some comments. First Christianity is not a FAITH based on only faith. It is FAITH based on fact. If the train is running the engine is FACT; the middle car is Faith and then Feelings. Feelings are the caboose; Faith is the engine..FACT. The Bible is not a book of faith it is a book of FACT. You can find the cities named, you can locate the places described. The people of the bible are historical people. History records the events of Bible teachings. There are ample evidence to prove anything the bible says. I weary of people who say the BIBLE is just another book. It is a FACTUAL; Accurate and trustworthy book. So, when I believe somthing it is not just on blind faith, it is based on facts. That is the whole of the arguement. I base my faith on fact...the fact of Jesus Christ, his birth, his life, his death and his resurrection. Hundreds of people have tried to disprove all this yet his claims are still valid and still true and truth. Truth can't be shoved aside. You can claim anything, but He, Christ was the fulfillment of Bible truth.

Josh McDowell tried to disprove the Resurrection and wrote a book about it called "Evidence that demands a verdict." Then he wrote another book called..."More Evidence that demands a verdict." When he started out searching and seeking for truth he found it.

Often we go about trying to prove something wrong or try to make it agree with our pre concieved ideas then and when we honestly search, we find that we were wrong.

The bible can stand every and any test you want to give it. I don't have to defend it, I just let it, like the "LION" it is, it can defend itself.

Go ahead, give it your best shot....try and destroy it, you lose, it will still be here and you will be dead and buried. Hundreds have tried, and died.

Having said that, each and every one of us has a right and the right to believe what you will. Many in religion do believe with only faith. I am not that way. In the Bible, Thomas was not either. He said, unless I see and touch, I will not beleive. So, Jesus showed himself to Thomas and Thomas did believe and I do believe that he touched, because he was that kind of a man...he wanted proof. Yes, Jesus said, Because you have seen and touch that is good, but blessed are those who believe with out seeing and touching. I don't think it wrong to question, I think that is good. I do think it wrong to believe something just because someone says it. I read hundreds of websites where they say this and that about the bible, never offering any proof, just making blanket statements that it is in error or that it is wrong or mis-translated.

If you study the scriptures, the Bible, you will find they are carefully and accurately copied and translated. That might not be true with some translations which are not translations but rather comentaries, but with most translations they have accuracy in their corner. You can always find fault with something, but if you are looking for truth, the Bible will give you truth. You might not like what you find, but it will be truthful. It is a book that tells both the good and the bad. It didn't and doesn't cover up David's sin with Uriah's wife, it tells you what he suffered and lost because of his sin. It is honest about the Hero's of the Bible and tells it like it is to us who read it. It gives hope for the future and help for the present. Give it and chance and it will change you life. Thanks for listening. GS

Just because the Bible mentions actual cities or historical people does not mean that it is fact; have you ever read historical novels? They also mention actual cities and individuals from history but they are fictional, not factual.

Where has the resurrection been proven? In the Bible? That's a circular argument (you're using the Bible to prove the Bible). Where has water walking been proven? Where has ascent skyward been proven? Where has water-to-wine been proven (parlor tricks aside)?

I'll tell you where: nowhere. The Bible is not terribly more confirmable as fact in its central tenets than are pink elephants or floating kangaroos. If it was, then it would be accepted history, not accepted religion.

[Krispin]

Like GS said, GIVE IT A CHANCE. If you are willingly ignorant you will not find the truth. Most people are, please don't be one of those people!! I tell you this because I honestly care about all of you amazing, nice people here. The bible is fact, theories are not.

Love BxB

The Bible has been given a chance for over 2000 years, more than a fair allotment. The problem is that it is no more demonstrable as true in its core components than is Scientology or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Shintoism, etc. Stop deluding yourself with ideas of pity for the nonbeliever or self-pity in the face of opposition to your beliefs; these are closer to delusional defense mechanisms of security rather than rational martyrdom or rational perseverance. The stories about the nonbelievers in the Bible that laughed at Noah and mocked Christ are effectively designed to overcome the feeling of being a sucker in believing something without sound ground. Wake up or persist in a coma of self-delusion.

[German Stallion]

The Bible has been given a chance for over 2000 years, more than a fair allotment. The problem is that it is no more demonstrable as true in its core components than is Scientology or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Shintoism, etc. Stop deluding yourself with ideas of pity for the nonbeliever or self-pity in the face of opposition to your beliefs; these are closer to delusional defense mechanisms of security rather than rational martyrdom or rational perseverance. The stories about the nonbelievers in the Bible that laughed at Noah and mocked Christ are effectively designed to overcome the feeling of being a sucker in believing something without sound ground. Wake up or persist in a coma of self-delusion.

Krispin...there you go again, making statements that you don't support..."The problem is that it is no more demonstrable as true in its core components than is Scientology or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Shintoism, etc." Go ahead and tell us some of those un-demonstrable core components that you are referring to. I would like to hear them. I have not yet found any. But, since you seem to be very versed in this ability to destroy the bible, I would like to hear from you. Really, I am not being sarcastic or unreasonable, just want to hear what you are talking about. Go slow, give us one item at a time. GS

[Krispin]

Krispin...there you go again, making statements that you don't support..."The problem is that it is no more demonstrable as true in its core components than is Scientology or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Shintoism, etc." Go ahead and tell us some of those un-demonstrable core components that you are referring to. I would like to hear them. I have not yet found any. But, since you seem to be very versed in this ability to destroy the bible, I would like to hear from you. Really, I am not being sarcastic or unreasonable, just want to hear what you are talking about. Go slow, give us one item at a time. GS

All right, I have no problem doing that. Here is a list of core Biblical components that have no proof beyond the written word and have not been demonstrated as possible:


1.)Walking on water (no Criss Angel stuff- I mean walking on water without physical tricks);

2.)Resurrection;

3.)Turning water into wine (once again, physical magic does not qualify unless you want to compare Christ to Criss Angel);

4.)Producing multitudes of bread loves and seafood from a limited quantity;

5.)Controlled ascent into the sky without any physical support mechanism (not Criss Angel style either, unless you want to admit that Criss Angel has the same abilities as Christ supposedly does);

6.)Raising people from the dead;


Prove any one of those and I will bow before you. But if you can't, then please hold your arrogance and ignorance in check before the fact that you believe in a delusion that is no more demonstrable as true than a child's fantasy world. Lastly, my statements have all been supported; I've explained to you how the Bible's core components are no more convincing than the core components of the world's remaining major religions. That is why fact is based on science and proof and confirmation and demonstrability and why religion and fantasy and astrology and things of that sort are separated: it's because they have not been proven, they have not been confirmed and they have not been demonstrated. Wake up from your delusion and smell the chemistry.

[BANANAxBOY]

So you require proof of some things but not of other things? Where's your faith now? Why put faith in water walkers and not put faith in common sense?

I feel the same way, I am not trusting anything that hasn't been proven to me.


The proof of my statement follows from basic experience: it's not okay that the religious establishment of the Middle Ages stifled scientific models and pursuits that ran counter to prevailing doctrine because this prolonged primitive conditions of existence, capping human potential and allowing unnecessary death and conquest (Crusades, Inquisition)

1. What I am backing up is not a religion.
2. That is a sad story, that the "religious" crushed the scientists studies.
3. This irrelevant statement does not prove that the scientists models were correct or that thier studies were to prove anything.



; it's not okay that National Socialist party of antebellum Germany disseminated and indoctrinated millions into a false philosophy of murder and perversion because this resulted in a genocide that tore apart the globe, that was the fodder for the Cold War, the Israeli conflicts, and throngs of other conflicts and discords

1. Tearing apart the Globe is a bad thing
2. This National Socialist party sounds terrible, they must be bad people.


; it's not okay that continued belief in Intelligent Design or Creationism is often accompanied with a denigration of evolution and the scientific basis behind it because this detracts from social progression into greater understanding and control of our lives, prolonging unnecessary death, unnecessary disease (stem cell research), unnecessary violence between competing religions, etc.

1.The reason that evolution is denigrated by Creationism is because they are two completely different ideas. Creationism, the idea that this world was created by someone, is in complete conflict with evolution (a theory) and it is perfectly ok to denigrate the idea of evolution when it can not be scientifically proven to be true which goes the same with the above statement, you are not proving anything either. All you ar telling me is that evolution is denigrated.

2. That is too bad that evolution was and is criticized.

3. Death and violence are bad things too!


The proof is in the fact that everything the human race has fought to accomplish in the last 500 years, everything technological or philosophical or directional, rests on the firm ground of confirmable and demonstrable science

1. The human race is incredible. Who made something so incredible?


; everything from the computer your using, the monitor you're viewing, the keyboard you're typing on, has been developed in a practical fashion that is separate from the understood concept of faith.

1. These wonderful things were built by human hands.
2. Where did the intelligence come from? The guy before the guy?


Belief in these things has born progress and real fruit to the human condition ,

1. So you believe in computers and keyboards, I do too.
2. If these keyboards bring real fruit to us in life like love and compassion, then what fruit will it bring when you die? My God will provide fruit all through my life, and when I die!


while belief in water walkers has born comforting delusions and savage bloodshed.

You couldn't have said it better assuming "water walkers" is reffering to some religion!


May God (if He or She or It does exist) have mercy on you for supporting such a disease.

I pray He does as well.



I don't really care where confirmation comes from as long as confirmation presented is defensible. Water walking is not defensible (magic tricks aside) because it is not confirmable or demonstrable; that's why Christians are so big on "believing without seeing," so that followers don't feel like complete suckers going along with something that they have absolutely no confirmation of beyond someone else's word. I'm not saying that walking on water is impossible- I have no proof of that. What I am saying is that there is no proof to believe in the positive, i.e., believe that a water walker existed in the past beyond a written account that is not demonstrably provable or memorably confirmable.

Allow the confirmation to come from me then. Since I have clearly proven above that your hardly rellevent statements have not proven a thing and go on about saying that "it's not ok", I will go on to tell you truth.

Jesus Christ created you and me for the purpose of having a relationship between us. Our God is a good God and has givin us life, hearts, and hands. Everything comes from God, everything lives by His power, everything declares His glory, and everything exists for His purpose. He didn't need to create us, but He chose to create us for His own pure enjoyment. God is a loving Father and we were created to be His children. Parents choose to have children don't they? It's the same with Jesus!

This is what the bible tells us. This book matches with everything today, yesterday and 3000 years ago. All from humans and animals being placed on the earth to our current actions today.

It is not possible to prove this statement wrong and that is because it is truth, and there is more where that came from in the WORD of the LORD, the bible.

Love BxB

[Krispin]

I feel the same way, I am not trusting anything that hasn't been proven to me.


Then you have no business of believing in Christianity. I'm going to dissect your defense, one point at a time, and hopefully you'll come to the realization that you have no proof or even clear, sound reason to defend your superstitions.



1. What I am backing up is not a religion.

Basic definition of religion from dictionary.com:
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

That describes Christianity to a T, as well as every other belief system that is usually classified as 'religion.' You've already embarrassed yourself by classifying Christianity as a non-religion when it clearly qualifies based on the standard definition.



2. That is a sad story, that the "religious" crushed the scientists studies.

What the devil are you talking about? Sad story? Crushed scientific studies? You're making inane statements that possibly betray a deep-seated psychosis: a delusion of grand proportions. Who cares if the story is sad- that's not the question here. The question is whether or not belief is justified and whether or not it is true or can be reasonably assumed to be true.



3. This irrelevant statement does not prove that the scientists models were correct or that thier studies were to prove anything.


Scientific models have been confirmed again and again and again, as opposed to religious tenets that have never been confirmed and are constantly in flux due to a mix of interpretations and denominations. Also, the question is not necessarily only that of "is it proven" but also "is it reasonable to believe it given the evidence that exists." Science has trumped religion at every corner and continues to do so. So far you have not proven anything about religion except the necessary delusional inclinations it produces in followers.



1. Tearing apart the Globe is a bad thing


The Catholic Church has been responsible for countless savage acts, indirectly and directly, commencing from the early Crusades and culminating in the torturous practices of the Inquisition. Because of the Church, scientific progress was slowed, its vigor suppressed, and its adherents ostracized, discredited, imprisoned, or murdered.



2. This National Socialist party sounds terrible, they must be bad people.


The National Socialist party is the party of the Nazis; the word Nazi is itself a sort of acronym for National Socialist. I don't understand how you could not have known this.



1.The reason that evolution is denigrated by Creationism is because they are two completely different ideas. Creationism, the idea that this world was created by someone, is in complete conflict with evolution (a theory) and it is perfectly ok to denigrate the idea of evolution when it can not be scientifically proven to be true which goes the same with the above statement, you are not proving anything either. All you ar telling me is that evolution is denigrated.


Evolution has been reasonably confirmed to such a degree that belief in it has become fully justifiable; to denigrate a theory or idea that has volumes of support behind it primarily because it conflicts with Biblical accounts (or as the repackaged Creationism "Intelligent Design") is fully unreasonable and evident of a cancerous bias against anything even remotely at odds with these convictions. Evolution has more support for it than Intelligent Design does; therefore, if any one of them is to be believed, it would reasonably be Evolution.



2. That is too bad that evolution was and is criticized.


It's not necessarily a bad thing that evolution is criticized if that criticism is legitimate. But to criticize it because it contradicts preexisting universal notions is nothing more but pernicious subjectivity.




3. Death and violence are bad things too!


What the devil are you talking about again? How does this even promote your argument? I know death and violence are 'bad things' (in most cases) and I was employing them to demonstrate the darker side of belief in Christianity.




1. The human race is incredible. Who made something so incredible?


We may be incredible to ourselves, but the question of our origins is something more complicated. Evolution is change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, that results in the development of new species. So to answer your question, we were made by chemical/corporal process that is inherent to the physical laws of the universe, a an age-long process that is commonly referred to as evolution today.




1. These wonderful things were built by human hands.


Okay. How does this help your argument?




2. Where did the intelligence come from? The guy before the guy?


Intelligence came from the gradual process of ability accumulation that follows from the evolutionary model; from simple proteins came the first self-replicating molecule that eventually led to the first single-celled organisms that was followed by more complex lifeforms; with each successive mutation or variance in recombination, the abilities of the life form were expanded and new cerebral functions (or the equivalent of) developed from the use of these abilities. Fast forward several hundred millions of years, and the process has yielded the most intellectually gifted life form on the planet yet: humans.





1. So you believe in computers and keyboards, I do too.
2. If these keyboards bring real fruit to us in life like love and compassion, then what fruit will it bring when you die? My God will provide fruit all through my life, and when I die!


Your God is a delusion that crushes you flat; it is no more a reality than the reality experienced by a cocaine addict while intoxicated, except yours is a 24/7 mental whitewashing. The question is not whether keyboards and computers will "bring fruit when" I die (you sound mentally handicapped when you say that, fyi) but whether a belief in God or Christianity or any other religion is reasonable. The only benefit of your belief may be that it provides you with enough comfort so that you do not have to accept the brutality of this world. But recognize that there is no proof or even reason to believe in any of your opinions. Rotting 6 feet under is more reasonable of a belief than flying off to Heaven upon death.






You couldn't have said it better assuming "water walkers" is reffering to some religion!


I was referring to your Christ when I said water walkers.




I pray He does as well.


More random statements that do not carry your argument.




Allow the confirmation to come from me then. Since I have clearly proven above that your hardly rellevent statements have not proven a thing and go on about saying that "it's not ok", I will go on to tell you truth.


I have shown that is clearly more reasonable to believe in evolution that it is to believe in the Bible or to believe in Intelligent Design. Your arguments have been crushed and your religion has crumbled. I hope your delusions are strong enough to keep you from this reality because if not, I do fear you may suffer a mental breakdown knowing that your entire philosophy is predicated on nonsense.




Jesus Christ created you and me for the purpose of having a relationship between us. Our God is a good God and has givin us life, hearts, and hands. Everything comes from God, everything lives by His power, everything declares His glory, and everything exists for His purpose. He didn't need to create us, but He chose to create us for His own pure enjoyment. God is a loving Father and we were created to be His children. Parents choose to have children don't they? It's the same with Jesus!


You have to learn logic. The statement above is precisely what you are intending to prove, so simply repeating it does not progress your argument further towards that proof. Parents have children, sure. How does that prove that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and was resurrected? Honestly, take logic 101 asap.




This is what the bible tells us. This book matches with everything today, yesterday and 3000 years ago. All from humans and animals being placed on the earth to our current actions today.


The Bible matches almost nothing of the today; science has essentially destroyed the Genesis account. I realize now you have a mental disorder that prevents anyone from reasoning with you. I am sorry for you.





It is not possible to prove this statement wrong and that is because it is truth, and there is more where that came from in the WORD of the LORD, the bible.


You have not proven anything. On the contrary, my argument stands that it is unreasonable to believe in the Bible or Christianity in general. Wake up now. Wake up. Wake up. Wake up.

[German Stallion]

I realize that this is a great and long discussion between Krispin and BxB but I can't sit and let these things go by without speaking out. I am going to quote some of the things that you say Krispin. They are the ones that need answering and answered with truth not rambling like you are doing.


Krispen Wrote: The Bible matches almost nothing of the today; science has essentially destroyed the Genesis account. I realize now you have a mental disorder that prevents anyone from reasoning with you. I am sorry for you.
Krispin, throwing rocks of slader to BxB shows your lack of knowledge. People who attack the character or in this case the mental ability of BxB shows your own insecurity. Obviously you just read what you want without reading anything from the “other side.” The bible is relevant to all things. Science has not destroyed the Genesis account. More and more evidence is showing there is Biblical evidence to line with proper science. The Bible spoke of atoms long before we ever discovered the atom. The Bible speaks of things being held together…Science will tell you of electrons, protons and neutrons being held together. The Bible speaks of this long before man knew it. Taking a disparaging attitude toward either side gets nowhere.

Krispin Wrote: Evolution has been reasonably confirmed to such a degree that belief in it has become fully justifiable; to denigrate a theory or idea that has volumes of support behind it primarily because it conflicts with Biblical accounts (or as the repackaged Creationism "Intelligent Design") is fully unreasonable and evident of a cancerous bias against anything even remotely at odds with these convictions. Evolution has more support for it than Intelligent Design does; therefore, if any one of them is to be believed, it would reasonably be Evolution.
Wrong again, Krispin. More and more scientists are questioning evolution and the theory and that is all it is, a theory. If you could and would and they would come up with the
Krispin wrote: The Catholic Church has been responsible for countless savage acts, indirectly and directly, commencing from the early Crusades and culminating in the torturous practices of the Inquisition. Because of the Church, scientific progress was slowed, its vigor suppressed, and its adherents ostracized, discredited, imprisoned, or murdered.
Krispin, you are right. I have never considered the Catholic church to be anything but religion pure and simple. For your information there is a big difference between “Christianity and Religion.” No, I don’t consider the Catholic church a good representative of Bible Christianity.
Krispin wrote: Intelligence came from the gradual process of ability accumulation that follows from the evolutionary model; from simple proteins came the first self-replicating molecule that eventually led to the first single-celled organisms that was followed by more complex lifeforms; with each successive mutation or variance in recombination, the abilities of the life form were expanded and new cerebral functions (or the equivalent of) developed from the use of these abilities. Fast forward several hundred millions of years, and the process has yielded the most intellectually gifted life form on the planet yet: humans.
Now that is a very interesting thing: So show me some of the intermediate lifeforms that must be around if we have several HUNDRED Million years. Simple things like where are the Transitional Fossils. Since Darwin put forth his theory, scientists have sought fossil evidence indicating past organic transitions. How many years later???? and there has been no evidence of transition found thus far in the fossil record. The earth tells the truth.

You keep throwing out these big numbers of hundreds of millions of years. It is now proven that the sun is losing energy.... It is losing a certain number of feet per hour in surface material. If you extrapolate back several tens of thousands of years, this means that the sun would have been appreciably larger, which means that the earth would have been scorched...Thus eliminating the possibility of life evolving on the earth millions of years ago and necessitating an orchestrated short term recent creation. It also means that the gravitational pull of the sun upon the earth would have caused the earth to catapult into the sun. This again proves that you really don't have a lot of time to deal with. There are hundreds and thousands of things that can prove and do prove the earth is young, not old.
It would appear to me Krispin that you are very defensive about this issue of the Bible and God; creation and evolution. It might be that you don’t want to believe in God because if you did and were convinced the Bible was true and God was real you would have to be accountable to what you learn to be truth. I personally doubt if you will be convinced of anything I write or anyone else writes, but I do challenge you to study and read and learn both sides. I have studied under some of the best and noted of the evolutionists and while I would respect them, I disagree with them and I am also learning that more and more staunch evolutionists are examining the Bible and creation. Thanks for listening. GS

[Krispin]

I realize that this is a great and long discussion between Krispin and BxB but I can't sit and let these things go by without speaking out. I am going to quote some of the things that you say Krispin. They are the ones that need answering and answered with truth not rambling like you are doing.


Krispen Wrote: The Bible matches almost nothing of the today; science has essentially destroyed the Genesis account. I realize now you have a mental disorder that prevents anyone from reasoning with you. I am sorry for you.
Krispin, throwing rocks of slader to BxB shows your lack of knowledge. People who attack the character or in this case the mental ability of BxB shows your own insecurity. Obviously you just read what you want without reading anything from the “other side.” The bible is relevant to all things. Science has not destroyed the Genesis account. More and more evidence is showing there is Biblical evidence to line with proper science. The Bible spoke of atoms long before we ever discovered the atom. The Bible speaks of things being held together…Science will tell you of electrons, protons and neutrons being held together. The Bible speaks of this long before man knew it. Taking a disparaging attitude toward either side gets nowhere.


Relax Stallion, I have no insecurity. If I see mental illness, I point it out. My arguments are sound and they have exposed the shaky foundations of your belief. Evolution contradicts Genesis; the age of the Earth contradicts Genesis; shall I continue or do you want to resolve these two problems for me so I can “see it your way”?




Krispin Wrote: Evolution has been reasonably confirmed to such a degree that belief in it has become fully justifiable; to denigrate a theory or idea that has volumes of support behind it primarily because it conflicts with Biblical accounts (or as the repackaged Creationism "Intelligent Design") is fully unreasonable and evident of a cancerous bias against anything even remotely at odds with these convictions. Evolution has more support for it than Intelligent Design does; therefore, if any one of them is to be believed, it would reasonably be Evolution.
Wrong again, Krispin. More and more scientists are questioning evolution and the theory and that is all it is, a theory. If you could and would and they would come up with the


Actually, you're wrong. My argument stands because you did not introduce anything relevant in your counterargument. Regardless of scientists questioning evolution, it still has more support behind it than Intelligent Design does, therefore if any one of the two is to be believed, it would have to be evolution. Learn to argue before you start taking on your superiors.



Krispin wrote: The Catholic Church has been responsible for countless savage acts, indirectly and directly, commencing from the early Crusades and culminating in the torturous practices of the Inquisition. Because of the Church, scientific progress was slowed, its vigor suppressed, and its adherents ostracized, discredited, imprisoned, or murdered.
Krispin, you are right. I have never considered the Catholic church to be anything but religion pure and simple. For your information there is a big difference between “Christianity and Religion.” No, I don’t consider the Catholic church a good representative of Bible Christianity.

Christianity is religion. Go to dictionary.com and look up religion. The definition matches Christianity to a T.



Krispin wrote: Intelligence came from the gradual process of ability accumulation that follows from the evolutionary model; from simple proteins came the first self-replicating molecule that eventually led to the first single-celled organisms that was followed by more complex lifeforms; with each successive mutation or variance in recombination, the abilities of the life form were expanded and new cerebral functions (or the equivalent of) developed from the use of these abilities. Fast forward several hundred millions of years, and the process has yielded the most intellectually gifted life form on the planet yet: humans.

Now that is a very interesting thing: So show me some of the intermediate lifeforms that must be around if we have several HUNDRED Million years. Simple things like where are the Transitional Fossils. Since Darwin put forth his theory, scientists have sought fossil evidence indicating past organic transitions. How many years later???? and there has been no evidence of transition found thus far in the fossil record. The earth tells the truth.


Here's a list of transitional fossils (only a partial list) on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

Before you open your mouth that there are no transitional fossils, how about actually knowing what you're talking about? Your argument is so pathetic I am honestly feeling pity for you because you are just getting destroyed.






You keep throwing out these big numbers of hundreds of millions of years. It is now proven that the sun is losing energy.... It is losing a certain number of feet per hour in surface material. If you extrapolate back several tens of thousands of years, this means that the sun would have been appreciably larger, which means that the earth would have been scorched...Thus eliminating the possibility of life evolving on the earth millions of years ago and necessitating an orchestrated short term recent creation.


You misunderstand and misinterpret reports on the sun's energy output; any learned astronomer or physicist would be appalled at the false information you've presented. The sun is losing energy but that does not mean life on Earth in the past was impossible- the fossil record proves it was possible. Even if the sun was significantly bigger in the past, the Earth has not had life on it for its entire history. In fact, it's only recently in Earth's history (but still millions of years) that life emerged. Get an education and stop talking nonsense. Your beliefs are crumbling before you and you have NO DEFENSE- quit believing garbage and wake up.



It also means that the gravitational pull of the sun upon the earth would have caused the earth to catapult into the sun. This again proves that you really don't have a lot of time to deal with. There are hundreds and thousands of things that can prove and do prove the earth is young, not old.


The evidence in support of the Earth's old age is more than the evidence in support of a young Earth, therefore it is reasonable to believe in the former, not the latter idea. Once again your belief has been shown to be delusional and unreasonable. You have no defense as to why you believe in something that has a competing theory that is more complete and better supported by the evidence.




It would appear to me Krispin that you are very defensive about this issue of the Bible and God; creation and evolution. It might be that you don’t want to believe in God because if you did and were convinced the Bible was true and God was real you would have to be accountable to what you learn to be truth. I personally doubt if you will be convinced of anything I write or anyone else writes, but I do challenge you to study and read and learn both sides. I have studied under some of the best and noted of the evolutionists and while I would respect them, I disagree with them and I am also learning that more and more staunch evolutionists are examining the Bible and creation. Thanks for listening. GS

This isn't about me being defensive or "afraid to believe in God"- it's about having the sense to see that belief in Christianity is unfounded and LESS supported than the competing explanation. The other side's argument is stronger and better supported by the evidence yet you still believe in nonsense. Stop being stubborn and wake up.




Also, you asked me very clearly to list to you the things in the Bible that are "indemonstrable core components" and I listed 6 things in a recent post. It seems that you are avoiding this post because you have no proof of anything I've listed. For your convenience, here's that list again (it's obvious to see the level of insanity Christians must have to day in and day out believe this drivel):

1.)Walking on water (no Criss Angel stuff- I mean walking on water without physical tricks);

2.)Resurrection;

3.)Turning water into wine (once again, physical magic does not qualify unless you want to compare Christ to Criss Angel);

4.)Producing multitudes of bread loves and seafood from a limited quantity;

5.)Controlled ascent into the sky without any physical support mechanism (not Criss Angel style either, unless you want to admit that Criss Angel has the same abilities as Christ supposedly does);

6.)Raising people from the dead;


Good luck with proving that...


-Krispin

[German Stallion]

Yo, I do object to your making fun and treating me or anyone else with ridicule. It is okay, just doesn't show much character on your part. I will consider the source.

Because you say something doens't make it so. I disagree with some of the conclusions you make.

Here is the last comment:
Also, you asked me very clearly to list to you the things in the Bible that are "indemonstrable core components" and I listed 6 things in a recent post. It seems that you are avoiding this post because you have no proof of anything I've listed. For your convenience, here's that list again (it's obvious to see the level of insanity Christians must have to day in and day out believe this drivel):

1.)Walking on water (no Criss Angel stuff- I mean walking on water without physical tricks);

2.)Resurrection;

3.)Turning water into wine (once again, physical magic does not qualify unless you want to compare Christ to Criss Angel);

4.)Producing multitudes of bread loves and seafood from a limited quantity;

5.)Controlled ascent into the sky without any physical support mechanism (not Criss Angel style either, unless you want to admit that Criss Angel has the same abilities as Christ supposedly does);

6.)Raising people from the dead;

Since that wasn't my part of the thread, I didn't answer it. First, I don't consider the things you listed as core componants. I Do consider the resurrection vital and can submit much proof for that but you would not accept it so why bother.

I have listed a couple books that speak of this, but you would not read them either.

YOU are asking to prove the results of Christ's life and work on earth VS Christ himself. If he was a man, just a man, then that would not matter, but he was not. He was what he claimed and you can't disprove it, probably any more than I can prove it. 2000 years have passed and he is still around and worshiped and loved. So is the Bible and you can do all you wish to distroy it but it will be here when you and I both are gone. Really I think it is grand that you believe what you do. Keep at it. You will find out one day you are wrong but it will be too late. When you want help, contact some of us who still believe the Bible and have faith in Christ. GS

[Krispin]

Yo, I do object to your making fun and treating me or anyone else with ridicule. It is okay, just doesn't show much character on your part. I will consider the source.

Because you say something doens't make it so. I disagree with some of the conclusions you make.

Here is the last comment:
Also, you asked me very clearly to list to you the things in the Bible that are "indemonstrable core components" and I listed 6 things in a recent post. It seems that you are avoiding this post because you have no proof of anything I've listed. For your convenience, here's that list again (it's obvious to see the level of insanity Christians must have to day in and day out believe this drivel):

1.)Walking on water (no Criss Angel stuff- I mean walking on water without physical tricks);

2.)Resurrection;

3.)Turning water into wine (once again, physical magic does not qualify unless you want to compare Christ to Criss Angel);

4.)Producing multitudes of bread loves and seafood from a limited quantity;

5.)Controlled ascent into the sky without any physical support mechanism (not Criss Angel style either, unless you want to admit that Criss Angel has the same abilities as Christ supposedly does);

6.)Raising people from the dead;

Since that wasn't my part of the thread, I didn't answer it. First, I don't consider the things you listed as core componants. I Do consider the resurrection vital and can submit much proof for that but you would not accept it so why bother.

I have listed a couple books that speak of this, but you would not read them either.

YOU are asking to prove the results of Christ's life and work on earth VS Christ himself. If he was a man, just a man, then that would not matter, but he was not. He was what he claimed and you can't disprove it, probably any more than I can prove it. 2000 years have passed and he is still around and worshiped and loved. So is the Bible and you can do all you wish to distroy it but it will be here when you and I both are gone. Really I think it is grand that you believe what you do. Keep at it. You will find out one day you are wrong but it will be too late. When you want help, contact some of us who still believe the Bible and have faith in Christ. GS

My comments have not been overly harsh- I am expressing how I honestly feel. I have pity for you. I also have a difficult time respecting you since you seem to be insane (you don't address any of the logic in the central arguments and you can't mount a proper defense for what you believe yet you still believe it- that's insane).

You don't have any proof of the resurrection; whatever you have is probably either derived from the Bible itself or is in some other way circular, thus invalidating it as proof. Also, the general arguments supporting the resurrection are shaky at best, have counterarguments, and collectively still do not offer more support for the Bible than the support that exists for evolution. Therefore, it is still more reasonable to believe in evolution.

You need to wake up now or you'll spend a lifetime in delusion. Stop telling yourself that people who don't believe what you believe are "misguided" or something else to make yourself feel better. The arguments against you are real and they are devastating. Face them or forever believe in a fantasy.

-Krispin

[German Stallion]

Krispin, I refuse to answer someone who keeps berating the person they are discussing things with. Either I am insane or BxB has mental disorders, or you feel pity for me or some other cutting remark. Thanks for the conversation.
GS

[Krispin]

Krispin, I refuse to answer someone who keeps berating the person they are discussing things with. Either I am insane or BxB has mental disorders, or you feel pity for me or some other cutting remark. Thanks for the conversation.
GS

Welcome to the real world, where you have to defend your arguments against opposition. You believe in something that you cannot seem to defend. That is insane. And I feel sorry for the insane. Nothing extraordinary about my comments.

[BANANAxBOY]

German Stallion- thanks for backing me up buddy but i really don't mind being bashed by krispin.

Krispin- In the above posts neither you nor me or GS have proven our statements, not one of us including YOU, all I did by breaking apart your post was show that all you stated was stories about religious people being bad. NOWHERE did you prove that there is no God. That was all I pointed out.

You are right that I did not prove anything myself and if you would have the patience with me, I will have patience with you, to try and argue this out to a conclusion I would be honored to go through this with you.

This being said, in order to prove the acts of Jesus walking on water, turning water into wine, His resurrection and so forth, the bible must be validated. I would like to try and do this for you, not because I need proof but because I have hope that I wish everyone could have including yourself my friend.

I think that it would be good to go at this one step at a time and hopefully through these steps one of us or our beliefs will be proven incorrect. I will start off with the first fact being a timeline of Evolution and a timeline for Creation.

The Big Bang Theory

About 20 billion years ago, all of nothing in the universe gathered together into a tiny extremely hot ball of mass, and this tiny ball of mass exploded. From this explosion the theory states that hydrogen and maybe a bit of helium was shot off, they came together in different areas and created what we call sons. About 4.6 billion years ago earth was formed from this explosion from the debris.

Creation
Genesis 1:1 says this, God created the heavens and the earth. If we trace the bible and the people in it with dates we can approximately come to a conclusion of the earth being about 6000 years old.

Is this a good starting point krispin? Let’s at least agree at one starting point and go step by step please.

BxB

[MAXAMEYES]

Full text here:
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html


Fascinating insight and wisdom from ancient sources (an excerpt):

A universe with a beginning.
In 1959, a survey was taken of leading American scientists. Among the many questions asked was, "What is your concept of the age of the universe?" Now, in 1959, astronomy was popular, but cosmology -- the deep physics of understanding the universe -- was just developing. The response to that survey was recently republished in Scientific American -- the most widely read science journal in the world. Two-thirds of the scientists gave the same answer: "Beginning? There was no beginning. Aristotle and Plato taught us 2400 years ago that the universe is eternal. Oh, we know the Bible says 'In the beginning.' That's a nice story, but we sophisticates know better. There was no beginning."

After 3000 years of arguing, science has come to agree with the Torah.That was 1959. In 1965, Penzias and Wilson discovered the echo of the Big Bang in the black of the sky at night, and the world paradigm changed from a universe that was eternal to a universe that had a beginning. After 3000 years of arguing, science has come to agree with the Torah.
It all starts from Rosh Hashana.
How long ago did the "beginning" occur? Was it, as the Bible might imply, 5700-plus years, or was it the 15 billions of years that's accepted by the scientific community?
The first thing we have to understand is the origin of the Biblical calendar. The Jewish year is figured by adding up the generations since Adam. Additionally, there are six days leading up to the creation to Adam. These six days are significant as well.
Now where do we make the zero point? On Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year, upon blowing the shofar, the following sentence is said: "Hayom Harat Olam -- today is the birthday of the world."
This verse might imply that Rosh Hashana commemorates the creation of the universe. But it doesn't. Rosh Hashana commemorate the creation of the Neshama, the soul of human life. We start counting our 5700-plus years from the creation of the soul of Adam.
We have a clock that begins with Adam, and the six days are separate from this clock. The Bible has two clocks.
That might seem like a modern rationalization, if it were not for the fact that Talmudic commentaries 1500 years ago, brings this information. In the Midrash (Vayikra Rabba 29:1), an expansion of the Talmud, all the Sages agree that Rosh Hashana commemorates the soul of Adam, and that the Six Days of Genesis are separate.
Why were the Six Days taken out of the calendar? Because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis. "There was evening and morning" is an exotic, bizarre, unusual way of describing time.
Once you come from Adam, the flow of time is totally in human terms. Adam and Eve live 130 years before having children! Seth lives 105 years before having children, etc. From Adam forward, the flow of time is totally human in concept. But prior to that time, it's an abstract concept: "Evening and morning." It's as if you're looking down on events from a viewpoint that is not intimately related to them.

[Krispin]

German Stallion- thanks for backing me up buddy but i really don't mind being bashed by krispin.

Krispin- In the above posts neither you nor me or GS have proven our statements, not one of us including YOU, all I did by breaking apart your post was show that all you stated was stories about religious people being bad. NOWHERE did you prove that there is no God. That was all I pointed out.

You are right that I did not prove anything myself and if you would have the patience with me, I will have patience with you, to try and argue this out to a conclusion I would be honored to go through this with you.

This being said, in order to prove the acts of Jesus walking on water, turning water into wine, His resurrection and so forth, the bible must be validated. I would like to try and do this for you, not because I need proof but because I have hope that I wish everyone could have including yourself my friend.

I think that it would be good to go at this one step at a time and hopefully through these steps one of us or our beliefs will be proven incorrect. I will start off with the first fact being a timeline of Evolution and a timeline for Creation.

The Big Bang Theory

About 20 billion years ago, all of nothing in the universe gathered together into a tiny extremely hot ball of mass, and this tiny ball of mass exploded. From this explosion the theory states that hydrogen and maybe a bit of helium was shot off, they came together in different areas and created what we call sons. About 4.6 billion years ago earth was formed from this explosion from the debris.

Creation
Genesis 1:1 says this, God created the heavens and the earth. If we trace the bible and the people in it with dates we can approximately come to a conclusion of the earth being about 6000 years old.

Is this a good starting point krispin? Let’s at least agree at one starting point and go step by step please.

BxB

I proved that it is unreasonable to believe in God; I never set out to prove that there is no God whatsoever.

Science says Earth has been around for billions of years and humans around for millions, not thousands. The Genesis account fails. Once again, the evidence shows that it is unreasonable to believe it. Therefore, you believe in something unreasonable. Therefore, you are unreasonable. Therefore, you are insane.

[Krispin]

Full text here:
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html


Fascinating insight and wisdom from ancient sources (an excerpt):

A universe with a beginning.
In 1959, a survey was taken of leading American scientists. Among the many questions asked was, "What is your concept of the age of the universe?" Now, in 1959, astronomy was popular, but cosmology -- the deep physics of understanding the universe -- was just developing. The response to that survey was recently republished in Scientific American -- the most widely read science journal in the world. Two-thirds of the scientists gave the same answer: "Beginning? There was no beginning. Aristotle and Plato taught us 2400 years ago that the universe is eternal. Oh, we know the Bible says 'In the beginning.' That's a nice story, but we sophisticates know better. There was no beginning."

After 3000 years of arguing, science has come to agree with the Torah.That was 1959. In 1965, Penzias and Wilson discovered the echo of the Big Bang in the black of the sky at night, and the world paradigm changed from a universe that was eternal to a universe that had a beginning. After 3000 years of arguing, science has come to agree with the Torah.
It all starts from Rosh Hashana.
How long ago did the "beginning" occur? Was it, as the Bible might imply, 5700-plus years, or was it the 15 billions of years that's accepted by the scientific community?
The first thing we have to understand is the origin of the Biblical calendar. The Jewish year is figured by adding up the generations since Adam. Additionally, there are six days leading up to the creation to Adam. These six days are significant as well.
Now where do we make the zero point? On Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year, upon blowing the shofar, the following sentence is said: "Hayom Harat Olam -- today is the birthday of the world."
This verse might imply that Rosh Hashana commemorates the creation of the universe. But it doesn't. Rosh Hashana commemorate the creation of the Neshama, the soul of human life. We start counting our 5700-plus years from the creation of the soul of Adam.
We have a clock that begins with Adam, and the six days are separate from this clock. The Bible has two clocks.
That might seem like a modern rationalization, if it were not for the fact that Talmudic commentaries 1500 years ago, brings this information. In the Midrash (Vayikra Rabba 29:1), an expansion of the Talmud, all the Sages agree that Rosh Hashana commemorates the soul of Adam, and that the Six Days of Genesis are separate.
Why were the Six Days taken out of the calendar? Because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis. "There was evening and morning" is an exotic, bizarre, unusual way of describing time.
Once you come from Adam, the flow of time is totally in human terms. Adam and Eve live 130 years before having children! Seth lives 105 years before having children, etc. From Adam forward, the flow of time is totally human in concept. But prior to that time, it's an abstract concept: "Evening and morning." It's as if you're looking down on events from a viewpoint that is not intimately related to them.

Science says that modern humans have existed for hundreds of thousands of years (http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/ask-an-astrobiologist/question/?id=1522) not 6000 years. Fail.

[MAXAMEYES]

Did you read the entire article? I think not.

P.S. "Science" has also stated that thalidomide was harmless, Agent Orange posed no threat, depleted uranium completely safe to handle and on, and on, and on. Science, as a process to uncover truth, is not a static process and, by definition, design, and necessity, cannot deal in the realm of absolutes. Science must remain open to, even dependent upon, revision.

[Krispin]

Did you read the entire article? I think not.

P.S. "Science" has also stated that thalidomide was harmless, Agent Orange posed no threat, depleted uranium completely safe to handle and on, and on, and on. Science, as a process to uncover truth, is not a static process and, by definition, design, and necessity, cannot deal in the realm of absolutes. Science must remain open to, even dependent upon, revision.

Yes I did read the entire article. The points you mentioned (agent orange, thalidomide) may have been reclassified, but the age of the Earth and the time of human appearance has been confirmed over and over and over and over again. It is therefore more reasonable to believe it than to believe the contradictory Biblical account. Therefore, you believe in something unreasonable. Therefore you are insane.

[BANANAxBOY]

I proved that it is unreasonable to believe in God; I never set out to prove that there is no God whatsoever.

Science says Earth has been around for billions of years and humans around for millions, not thousands. The Genesis account fails. Once again, the evidence shows that it is unreasonable to believe it. Therefore, you believe in something unreasonable. Therefore, you are unreasonable. Therefore, you are insane.

Are you afraid to go into this in detail? Again you did not prove anything, you just said that the earth is billions of years old and said i was wrong. You are the one that keeps telling me to back myself up, you are currently being hypocritical, or is it just my mental illness in the way again.

Please krispin, i just want to argue this through like respectable men, can we not do that? Can we not go off my previous post?

BxB

[Krispin]

Are you afraid to go into this in detail? Again you did not prove anything, you just said that the earth is billions of years old and said i was wrong. You are the one that keeps telling me to back myself up, you are currently being hypocritical, or is it just my mental illness in the way again.

Please krispin, i just want to argue this through like respectable men, can we not do that? Can we not go off my previous post?

BxB

I've already discussed this in detail (read previous posts). Go prove the resurrection to me before you want me to believe in your garbage.

[MAXAMEYES]

Yes I did read the entire article. The points you mentioned (agent orange, thalidomide) may have been reclassified, but the age of the Earth and the time of human appearance has been confirmed over and over and over and over again. It is therefore more reasonable to believe it than to believe the contradictory Biblical account. Therefore, you believe in something unreasonable. Therefore you are insane.




What I find so amusing about a little fella like you is that you're just sooooo anxious to denigrate and condemn that you feel obligated, for whatever self-absorbed reasons, create an issue where there is none.

I espoused no belief, on either side of the supposed argument, yet you attributed such to me by your own volition.
Sad, sad and somewhat desperate.
Your premature supposition that my contribution somehow stands in direct opposition to your own stated position and is then somehow even a threat to same is not only fallacious but also irrational given the content of my post.
And the use of the appellation "insane" is not only simply a hollow, self-serving deprecation, it's also just plain immature.

(This is a forum for adults, to discuss adult issues in an adult fashion. If you are unable to comport yourself properly perhaps you should explore the option of leaving before you are "asked" to leave. Your profile contains no age information, yet you list yourself as a student; you must be 18 years of age to obtain membership in MOS.)

You claim both reason and sanity as your method, you also claim to have read the entire article I cited, yet if these were actually true (presuming you have the requisite intelligence to understand the article's intent, of course) then you would have realized that the scientist who posted this article presented an entirely plausible explanation, using almost universally accepted precepts and methodology (Newtonian & Einsteinian physics in general) to offer proof as to how simple mistranslations from the source document and academic hubris have, in aggregate, over time, created a conceptual rift in understanding wherein none exists in actuality.

To simplify for you: the oft cited, and at times heated, dichotomy between the respective viewpoints, each, in turn, espousing and/or derrogating various ancient observations then modern deduction and religious establishment, are, in fact, simply symptomatic of the diametricity imposed via rampantly divergent perspectives, aggravated by obdurate adherence to arbitrary paradigms, quite frequently in the presence of viable alternatives, and propagated to this very day due to blatant hostility from each party toward the other replacing healthy, rational intellectual discourse between adults.

Closing ones mind to new sources of insight and information is pathetic enough; closing ones mind to the possibility of new sources of same existing is pitiable and regressive.

From now on ensure someone has actually stated a position before you attempt to attack it in so specious a fashion. A reply on your part is neither warranted, nor invited, yet inevitable I imagine; take care to ensure it is salient and mature.

[BANANAxBOY]

I've already discussed this in detail (read previous posts). Go prove the resurrection to me before you want me to believe in your garbage.

I told you, I CAN NOT until I prove that the bible is true. If you don't give me the chance how can i do this?

You did not use one fact other than the scientists said it was so. If my friend tells you that there is a God are you you going to believe, I don't think so. You continue to say that scientists have proven over an over again, this is not proof.

Use one fact krispin, until you do, you are not proving yourself. You are also giving up. By the way, the link to the cartoons was amusing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tional_fossils).

The Big Bang Theory
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
About 20 billion years ago, all of nothing in the universe gathered together into a tiny extremely hot ball of mass, and this tiny ball of mass exploded. From this explosion the theory states that hydrogen and maybe a bit of helium was shot off, they came together in different areas and created what we call sons. About 4.6 billion years ago earth was formed from this explosion from the debris.
<o:p> </o:p>
Creation

Genesis 1:1 says this, God created the heavens and the earth. If we trace the bible and the people in it with dates we can approximately come to a conclusion of the earth being about 6000 years old.
Now, do I have your side of the story right?

BxB

[Krispin]

What I find so amusing about a little fella like you is that you're just sooooo anxious to denigrate and condemn that you feel obligated, for whatever self-absorbed reasons, create an issue where there is none.

I espoused no belief, on either side of the supposed argument, yet you attributed such to me by your own volition.
Sad, sad and somewhat desperate.
Your premature supposition that my contribution somehow stands in direct opposition to your own stated position and is then somehow even a threat to same is not only fallacious but also irrational given the content of my post.
And the use of the appellation "insane" is not only simply a hollow, self-serving deprecation, it's also just plain immature.

(This is a forum for adults, to discuss adult issues in an adult fashion. If you are unable to comport yourself properly perhaps you should explore the option of leaving before you are "asked" to leave. Your profile contains no age information, yet you list yourself as a student; you must be 18 years of age to obtain membership in MOS.)

You claim both reason and sanity as your method, you also claim to have read the entire article I cited, yet if these were actually true (presuming you have the requisite intelligence to understand the article's intent, of course) then you would have realized that the scientist who posted this article presented an entirely plausible explanation, using almost universally accepted precepts and methodology (Newtonian & Einsteinian physics in general) to offer proof as to how simple mistranslations from the source document and academic hubris have, in aggregate, over time, created a conceptual rift in understanding wherein none exists in actuality.

To simplify for you: the oft cited, and at times heated, dichotomy between the respective viewpoints, each, in turn, espousing and/or derrogating various ancient observations then modern deduction and religious establishment, are, in fact, simply symptomatic of the diametricity imposed via rampantly divergent perspectives, aggravated by obdurate adherence to arbitrary paradigms, quite frequently in the presence of viable alternatives, and propagated to this very day due to blatant hostility from each party toward the other replacing healthy, rational intellectual discourse between adults.

Closing ones mind to new sources of insight and information is pathetic enough; closing ones mind to the possibility of new sources of same existing is pitiable and regressive.

From now on ensure someone has actually stated a position before you attempt to attack it in so specious a fashion. A reply on your part is neither warranted, nor invited, yet inevitable I imagine; take care to ensure it is salient and mature.

Not anxious at all to denigrate anything; just pointing out the obvious that your position is weak and that you believe in an explanation that has been discredited countless times. That's unreasonable. Peppering high-sounding words throughout your little rant does not change the poor state of your arguments; it just makes you sound moronic, pathetic, and annoying.

[Krispin]

I told you, I CAN NOT until I prove that the bible is true. If you don't give me the chance how can i do this?

You did not use one fact other than the scientists said it was so. If my friend tells you that there is a God are you you going to believe, I don't think so. You continue to say that scientists have proven over an over again, this is not proof.

Use one fact krispin, until you do, you are not proving yourself. You are also giving up. By the way, the link to the cartoons was amusing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tional_fossils).

The Big Bang Theory
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
About 20 billion years ago, all of nothing in the universe gathered together into a tiny extremely hot ball of mass, and this tiny ball of mass exploded. From this explosion the theory states that hydrogen and maybe a bit of helium was shot off, they came together in different areas and created what we call sons. About 4.6 billion years ago earth was formed from this explosion from the debris.
<o:p> </o:p>
Creation

Genesis 1:1 says this, God created the heavens and the earth. If we trace the bible and the people in it with dates we can approximately come to a conclusion of the earth being about 6000 years old.
Now, do I have your side of the story right?

BxB

Science states that humankind and the Earth are both much older than 6000 years. Science has more evidence in support of its claim than the Bible. Therefore, science is the stronger explanation; believing in the alternative is unreasonable and unfounded. There, I just destroyed your entire philosophy, and on Christmas Eve nonetheless!

[MAXAMEYES]

Not anxious at all to denigrate anything; just pointing out the obvious that your position is weak and that you believe in an explanation that has been discredited countless times. That's unreasonable. Peppering high-sounding words throughout your little rant does not change the poor state of your arguments; it just makes you sound moronic, pathetic, and annoying.

I'll speak in a manner you can understand:
Dumb-ass:
I took no position.
I have no position.
My post took no position.
A position that doesn't exist cannot be unreasonable,
it cannot be reasonable,
it cannot be attacked,
it cannot be defended,
it can't BE anything,
because it is NOT anything.

Did you catch all that?
Could I be any clearer?

Were those words small and "low-sounding"
enough for you to understand?
Read slowly and it won't hurt so much; I can't type any slower.

[BANANAxBOY]

Science states that humankind and the Earth are both much older than 6000 years. Science has more evidence in support of its claim than the Bible. Therefore, science is the stronger explanation; believing in the alternative is unreasonable and unfounded. There, I just destroyed your entire philosophy, and on Christmas Eve nonetheless!


Again no fact krispin, just your defensless opinion. Why won't you go into detail with me, I made a nice little post that starts at the start? You leave no other explanation than you are afraid to be proven wrong, and that is ok because i have no intention to hurt you or make you feel bad. I simply want to bring you the hope that I have.

Love BxB

[Krispin]

I'll speak in a manner you can understand:
Dumb-ass:
I took no position.
I have no position.
My post took no position.
A position that doesn't exist cannot be unreasonable,
it cannot be reasonable,
it cannot be attacked,
it cannot be defended,
it can't BE anything,
because it is NOT anything.

Did you catch all that?
Could I be any clearer?

Were those words small and "low-sounding"
enough for you to understand?
Read slowly and it won't hurt so much; I can't type any slower.

Hey, psycho, get this through your mentally deranged mind: YOU ARE INSANE. How's that sound, huh? Got any more questions you want me to answer? Your arguments were destroyed- Merry Christmas.

P.S. Also, my attack on your writing pattern worked quite well- you lost your nerve and control of your temper. I would decimate you in public debate, mark that.

[Krispin]

Again no fact krispin, just your defensless opinion. Why won't you go into detail with me, I made a nice little post that starts at the start? You leave no other explanation than you are afraid to be proven wrong, and that is ok because i have no intention to hurt you or make you feel bad. I simply want to bring you the hope that I have.

Love BxB

Lol...my "opinion" is supported by volumes of scientific data and rudimentary logic. Your beliefs are defenseless and INSANE. You are INSANE, got that? In a few hours, you'll be waking up to the cold realization that your day of celebration has turned into a day of destruction. If this argument had been public, you would have been HUMILIATED. Merry ****ing Christmas B~).

[BANANAxBOY]

The Big Bang Theory

About 20 billion years ago, all of nothing in the universe gathered together into a tiny extremely hot ball of mass, and this tiny ball of mass exploded. From this explosion the theory states that hydrogen and maybe a bit of helium was shot off, they came together in different areas and created what we call sons. About 4.6 billion years ago earth was formed from this explosion from the debris.

Creation

Genesis 1:1 says this, God created the heavens and the earth. If we trace the bible and the people in it with dates we can approximately come to a conclusion of the earth being about 6000 years old.


Ok, I'll continue...


So, I think I've given this statement a long enough time for someone to disagree, so lets continue assuming this statement is true. If anyone feels obligated to jump in and argue, please do! Lets just try and be respectful about this.

The Big Bang Theory: Response

1. I would like someone to show me where in science that "nothing" becomes something.

2. Gasses do not just "come together". Try and blow hydrogen and helium together and see if they attract and create new mass.

3. If the earth is supposedly 4.6 billion years old and human's have been around for a lot more than 6 thousand years than how come we are not so advanced? ( we invented car's, planes, cellphones, computers and many more in just 100 years)

Creation: Response

We have Earth, which proves this first verse in the bible correct.

[Alex DeLarge]

3. If the earth is supposedly 4.6 billion years old and human's have been around for a lot more than 6 thousand years than how come we are not so advanced? ( we invented car's, planes, cellphones, computers and many more in just 100 years)


http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/christianity-1.jpg


Do I believe in God?
If a christian asks me I will say no...
If atheist ask me I will say yes...

[Alex78]

this is funny
http://degiorgi.math.hr/~vsego/phun/bullets_are_real.jpg

[doublelongdaddy]

Of course there is a God, it's silly to think otherwise....the question is what do you call God?

[Alex DeLarge]

hahah Alex78 I have the same pic but it says " Nothing says I trust you god more that 3 inches of bulletproof glass" rofl

[MAXAMEYES]

I just read back a little...Krispin; thought that little clown-fish was fins up in the tank by now.

[Turnover]

If you believe in God you believe in the Devil so what have you got to lose?

[REDZULU2003]

Disrespectful but I can see humor in it.

Yes DLD god is beyond human comprehension and we are ignorant fuckers lets be honest abouit it and think we are so elite with all our technology and shit. I have heard cosmologists debate the start of universe for years but no one really knows ... the whole universe everything when it started was created I think by what everyone worships in one way or another by GOD. Its also wonderful to see these pricks who practice black magic call god and Jesus ... when many of the chants they use actually ask for GOD to allow the spirit or entity they are evoking to come to them in the first place and respond to them! and they use sigils and seals that many times have a strong relationship to god such as his hidden names written on them.

So they may not believe in god, some of the occult but they ask for gods permission to control his entities? wankers .... than again the excuse would be that they see god as who they are invoking or Lucifer as the god but the flaw still exists that your chanting and know of the knowledge that exists making it clear something called GOD created all this! It started somewhere, so to me many faiths are all tapping into god via different deities and belief systems incl the occult , they use different systems but its all GOD ... magic is all possible because of GOD, because of how the universal laws have been setup.

Even satanists are actually under god, Satan and Lucifer were creations of god so NO ONE can escape god unless you dont believe in god full stop which limits you I think in many areas of your life and belief systems.

[REDZULU2003]

If you believe in God you believe in the Devil so what have you got to lose?

Well exactly and is why those silly fuckers who make pacts with the devil or become satanists and as they do have to renounce god, Jesus, the saints, holy Mary etc but they are actually FOOLS because Lucifer was one of the angels, now fallen and created by God. So renouncing god is essentially ignorant and slapping the Devils father across the face , the father who could destroy anyone and anything in a heart beat should so he desire ... Lucifer is a streak of piss to what God can accomplish, just look into Babylonian magic which wipes the floor with all this satan shit because they were tapping into gods power via different deities, whos to say though they werent real?

[MAXAMEYES]

Red,
for me, now that we're finding out about dark energy, dark matter, quantum physics and who knows what else next, what this means is that what we thought we knew-we didn't...about much of anything.

There always were more questions than answers...now there's SHITLOADS more!

[REDZULU2003]

Thats right. Its hard to explain feelings on here with text and hope no one takes me wrongly on this, dont mean to be aggressive. My thoughts are yes god exists and created the universe alas the big bang and I belive in Jesus plus many other religious peoples existsed. I'm a Protestant, Church of England but not hardliner or anything like that. I have learned about the occult and respect different views but loose my patience as you have read when those who disown god plain and clrealy are chanting text out to ask gods permssion to control an entity ... see the hypocrasy?

Yes god created everything and we have NO IDEA how powerful god is. Thinkl about it. Stars, planets, matter, EVERYTHING...............................GOD created it! Strange things occured 1000's of years ago hence the pyramids, king Salomon the aztecs etc etc they knew something or were exposed to something higher (Open to interpretation) I think from what I have seen and read ... they knew so much ahead of the time and the religious and magical workings they had are PHENOMINAL and still used to this day ... the Babylonians were like the first civilisation just look into them and Mesopotamia and see how amazing they were ... the strange gods they had.

So man had to make sense of it all and such came religions based on where you are in the world they take on a flavour i.e. Voodoo, Christianty, Islam, Judaism etc etc. Many gods are around in some religions and whos to say they didnt exist? but for me they are all tapping into the main source, the overall creator and the one we call GOD. The actual creator or even creators. Who are they?

Aliens are a part I think aswell but dont know what part they play in all this. They have been seen since prehistoric times and mentioned in passaged within the bible as floating spheres controlled by angels.

We mention the Law of attraction, meditation, deja vu etc its all possible because of the universe and hows it setup. Quantum Physics is the new kid on the block, what an inteesting yet difficult to study subject. Its evrything. They say the 4th dimension is time, we are in a 3D world yet the 4th dimension is around us and has been called the matrix. To best see this in your mind, revert to the matrix film when you see the green outlined stuff around everywhere .... that could be representative of the 4th dimension with time around it.

We pray to god and tap through the universal source to gods power and that I believe. It can ve via Jesus Christ or whoever according to faith. We have the 5 elements, astrology, the planets have powers of their own if again you belive! EVERYTHING has a purpose.

[Turnover]

How is it my personal view is disrespectful? I happen to believe the Devil is just an extension of God they are only separated by a name why is that something wrong to express, because it is just different. Its not that I don't believe in God or worship Satan I just meant really if you believe in God you have nothing to worry about because either way you're on a good path. I should have been more clear I apologize.

[MAXAMEYES]

From an Edgar Cayce reading.
("Thought for the Day", get these sent daily from the A.R.E.)

Think on This ...
Each entity is a part of the universal whole. All knowledge, all understanding that has been a part of the entity's consciousness, then, is a part of the entity's experience. Thus the unfoldment in the present is merely becoming aware of that experience through which the entity, either in body or in mind--has passed in a consciousness.

[Alex78]

Interesting thing a company in US did polygraph test on employees for years and they said every time a person said they don't believe in god, the needle shook.
Zig Ziglar talked about it, would be nice to get the company name..

[REDZULU2003]

How is it my personal view is disrespectful? I happen to believe the Devil is just an extension of God they are only separated by a name why is that something wrong to express, because it is just different. Its not that I don't believe in God or worship Satan I just meant really if you believe in God you have nothing to worry about because either way you're on a good path. I should have been more clear I apologize.

Sorry I need to apologize, I was referring to the picture with the pope in this thread. Sorry.

[doublelongdaddy]

Interesting thing a company in US did polygraph test on employees for years and they said every time a person said they don't believe in god, the needle shook.
Zig Ziglar talked about it, would be nice to get the company name..

o you have a link? THIS SOUNDS VERY COOL!

[MAXAMEYES]

One of the "Names of God" I like best is: El Shaddai, Ancient Hebrew for "The God of the Breast".
Now, who can't appreciate a guy like that I ask you?

[Alex78]

o you have a link? THIS SOUNDS VERY COOL!

It is in the Ziglar tapes i would have to search but im a lazy dude and it sounds like work and that i don't like either!

[REDZULU2003]

72 names in total I think and many never to be spoken aloud. The universe we as humans are only just scratching at the surface and one day perhaps in many 1000's of years time from now that generation will Phaethon out why we are here exactly and the whole story of how it all started etc. I can see it in my head but hard to explain what I mean, would be awesome as a book or film and yes one day I see the human race coming face to face with gods ultimate power and therein the meaning of life, as we ask many times ... we will find the purpose, why humans, everything ....

[Turnover]

I think if I am god then there is no such thing as god. I believe in a Creator- it is of everything that is Good and Evil.

[doublelongdaddy]

There has to be a God (creator) this all didn't happen by chance and if it did who set up the chance:)

[REDZULU2003]

I have just acquired loads of e books on all the religions and will have them up soon. Will anyone read them though? :)

[Turnover]

There has to be a God (creator) this all didn't happen by chance and if it did who set up the chance:)

I'll drink to that!

[stillwantmore2]

I believe in a god in as such that "it" is a creative force for all life in the Universe. The "gods" of different religions though...I honestly believe are mankind's misinterpretations of things he had no explanation...or vocabulary for. Many languages for example have no word for things we express in English...so they use our English words amidst a sentence of their language. Thoroughly investigate ANY religion...I challenge you to...anyone to..and you find similar stories of things like "Chariots of fire", "pillars of smoke", "those from wince the heavens came", "star people" (American Indian "myths"), "Angels"...or beings who had the power of flight...just one example of "coincidence" in religions.

[Crazy Doc]

I see no logic in any gods. Through history men have invented gods to deal with explaining things they are ignorant of. It is illogical to conclude that all those other gods are false, yet yours is real-I've never followed how theists don't see that! What are the odds that that god over there is false, and so is that one, and so are those other 10,000 gods... but YOURS is the one, real god... really??? cmon!
There is no evidence of any gods, nor of any creation. The best evidence I think theists can come up with is "but look at all this stuff" which is fallacious reasoning that creation is necessary-which of course they contradict by not requiring a creation for their own god... Much of this type of "reasoning" is prevalent when you press them for reasons behind the faith.

Ultimately-gods are just santa clause for adults. The only difference is that we are told at some point NOT to believe in santa. Just as you LEARN to believe in a god, just as you did to believe in a santa or tooth fairy. It is only because our parents believe in such things and it's a tradition I like to call "self mental caging". I see nothing positive that has come out of faith in gods-frankly the darkest periods of human history seem to usually be closely connected to some theist faith and its ideas...

[n8dogg]

this is god

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWSvwBHemas&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZgVimp4-J0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLeDiUD5cj4&feature=related

[stillwantmore2]

I see no logic in any gods. Through history men have invented gods to deal with explaining things they are ignorant of. It is illogical to conclude that all those other gods are false, yet yours is real-I've never followed how theists don't see that! What are the odds that that god over there is false, and so is that one, and so are those other 10,000 gods... but YOURS is the one, real god... really??? cmon!
There is no evidence of any gods, nor of any creation. The best evidence I think theists can come up with is "but look at all this stuff" which is fallacious reasoning that creation is necessary-which of course they contradict by not requiring a creation for their own god... Much of this type of "reasoning" is prevalent when you press them for reasons behind the faith.

Ultimately-gods are just santa clause for adults. The only difference is that we are told at some point NOT to believe in santa. Just as you LEARN to believe in a god, just as you did to believe in a santa or tooth fairy. It is only because our parents believe in such things and it's a tradition I like to call "self mental caging". I see nothing positive that has come out of faith in gods-frankly the darkest periods of human history seem to usually be closely connected to some theist faith and its ideas...

Exactly. I once said something like (to a "religious" person) "Wouldn't it royally suck if you got to heaven one day and realized ah shit...the Buddhists (or whoever) were right?"

[Shooting for 7"]

Wow,

What a fantastic question and yet soooo difficult to answer on a forum.

I found my spirituality a few years ago - before then I can't say what I was.... perhaps a totally confused person ?

I wasn't religious (though my parents insisted I was a muslim!), didn't believe in God as such, yet my life wasn't working. I knew I was here for a reason, but didn't know what that reason was. I'd spent most of my life searching.

When I read some of the comments on here about God/Religion etc etc etc, to me the problem is not God, but MAN and his HEAD.

When man 'interferes' with stuff, writes books (bibles, korans, etc) then we are all open to misinterpreting the words within them. For they are only words, words which will mean one thing to one person, and another thing to someone else.

I believe in God, and in fact I actually believe totally in God and believe a lot less in Man....... I believe that when man can control his ego letting his 'godly-ness' shine, then I will trust man.

What is Godly-ness ?? Essentially, Truth and Love.......

People who don't believe in God, and this is going to sound extremely attacking, but to me, they're blind. They're blind in that they are ignorant about themselves, they are unaware that there is God within them and within us all and that we can all be truly great. Instead the vast majority of us (men) are walking zombies, using our 'heads' and hardly our hearts.

Hence why not a lot of people believe in God.

We are all God's children and contrary to what and why a 'man' might put fear into you, saying that God punishes you for this or for that, I'm afraid that that is simply wrong - that, again, is man's ego, coming from fear to have control over you.

A brilliant book (if you're ready) and very easy to read is Neale Donald Walsch's "Conversations with God".

Better still, buy the Audiobook (it'll have you in tears).

Oh, and to all the Atheists, you need to suspend disbelief in life sometimes, again, that's your ego wanting to know/calculate/fathom every single minutiae before accepting something.......sheesh !

Peace to you all.

P.S. I'm not a muslim anymore (that was a religion 'given' to me at birth) - I keep my options open for there are many great teachers out there and that is what it's all about for me. For example, when his words are explained to me, I totally get Jesus' teachings and they resonate/make perfect sense to me. I think that's the case with a lot of the other religions also, i.e. there is goodness in all of them. The trouble starts happening when man (there we go again!) starts 'inter-fearing'.......

[Crazy Doc]

Oh, and to all the Atheists, you need to suspend disbelief in life sometimes, again, that's your ego wanting to know/calculate/fathom every single minutiae before accepting something.......sheesh !

.

See... now earlier you mentioned meditation.... and you do realize what you describe is much closer to Buddhism than any Theism yes? Generally, Buddhism is what we call an "Atheist Faith". Atheism does NOT mean you don't believe in anything or don't have spirituality, or don't have faith. But that is a common misconception.

Atheism is a very simple concept it simply means "Without Theism" or "Without Belief in god/s". Nothing more, nothing less. The largest group of atheists is BABIES (you have to learn about a god to have faith or belief in one, nobody is born with a faith or belief in a god or gods). The second largest group of atheists is BUDDHISTS. Lots of Christian and Theist Scholars today begin to describe god as more of a "force" or "law" than an entity. To do so is beginning to approach Buddhism and it's really stretching to describe that as "theism" once you've reached that point.

My faith runs very deep, I've seen things that most might not have the fortune to see... yet I am in fact an atheist.

[REDZULU2003]

I'll link this thread (http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?61281-Religion-scripture-themed-ebook-postings) in here as-well. Has loads of e books on many religions.

[REDZULU2003]

http://img1.hidemyass.com/img/Qp8rA.jpg (http://www.hidemyass.com/img/Qp8rA)

[Shooting for 7"]

See... now earlier you mentioned meditation.... and you do realize what you describe is much closer to Buddhism than any Theism yes? Generally, Buddhism is what we call an "Atheist Faith". Atheism does NOT mean you don't believe in anything or don't have spirituality, or don't have faith. But that is a common misconception.

Atheism is a very simple concept it simply means "Without Theism" or "Without Belief in god/s". Nothing more, nothing less. The largest group of atheists is BABIES (you have to learn about a god to have faith or belief in one, nobody is born with a faith or belief in a god or gods). The second largest group of atheists is BUDDHISTS. Lots of Christian and Theist Scholars today begin to describe god as more of a "force" or "law" than an entity. To do so is beginning to approach Buddhism and it's really stretching to describe that as "theism" once you've reached that point.

My faith runs very deep, I've seen things that most might not have the fortune to see... yet I am in fact an atheist.

I believe that this thing called God exists - I don't believe that it is in any form that *we* as human beings may currently understand.

I don't think that it's that Old bearded man up in the sky, I believe it's something far more 'energy' based as it were.

But I *do* believe that whatever word you want to give it, that yes, there is a 'god' and that we are all part of the great plan of the Universe, we are evolving, along with the Universe's expansion - we are part of that expansion.

In the book I mentioned, Neale asks 'God' to make himself visible so that he could see who/what it was that he was channelling - and God replied along the lines that 'I am a form you would not understand'. The cynics would say "Nice cop out", whereas most of us can accept that. If there was a Creator, he (oops !) must be extremely advanced and way ahead of our current knowledge I'd be sure of that.

Do you not feel that you are here for a purpose ?? That you are playing your part in this great scheme of things ??

Peace to you all.

P.S. I'm not sure I'd agree that the largest group of atheists are babies !!! I could argue that they are the largest group of believers in God !! For to me, they come from that pure place of love (I'm not talking about the love of their parents) and it's only over a period of time, as they grow up, when humans (especially adults) taint them with Ego that they start to lose their 'god-li-ness' and become less from God and start questioning why this and why that (back to ego-ic mind/thinking).

[stillwantmore2]

I believe that this thing called God exists - I don't believe that it is in any form that *we* as human beings may currently understand.

I don't think that it's that Old bearded man up in the sky, I believe it's something far more 'energy' based as it were.

But I *do* believe that whatever word you want to give it, that yes, there is a 'god' and that we are all part of the great plan of the Universe, we are evolving, along with the Universe's expansion - we are part of that expansion.

In the book I mentioned, Neale asks 'God' to make himself visible so that he could see who/what it was that he was channelling - and God replied along the lines that 'I am a form you would not understand'. The cynics would say "Nice cop out", whereas most of us can accept that. If there was a Creator, he (oops !) must be extremely advanced and way ahead of our current knowledge I'd be sure of that.

.

This couple paragraphs sums up my feelings along with the ideas that basically, man's whole CORRUPTION of religion is the ARROGANT view that "my CHRISTIAN, BUDDHIST, MUSLIM, MORMON, CATHOLIC, (insert religion) view of God is the only correct view and damn you if you don't believe what I do" I have yet to find a religious person who was not truly open minded about religion. It (religion) is honestly one of the most closed minded, (dare I say) brain-washing indoctrinations that exists.

[Shooting for 7"]

This couple paragraphs sums up my feelings along with the ideas that basically, man's whole CORRUPTION of religion is the ARROGANT view that "my CHRISTIAN, BUDDHIST, MUSLIM, MORMON, CATHOLIC, (insert religion) view of God is the only correct view and damn you if you don't believe what I do" I have yet to find a religious person who was not truly open minded about religion. It (religion) is honestly one of the most closed minded, (dare I say) brain-washing indoctrinations that exists.


No disrespect to you my friend, but I wouldn't get so defensive about religions - just take from them the good that resonate with you and disregard what doesn't.

We are all 'teachers' - man there are things which people on this site have explained fantastically, which I simply haven't understood otherwise. It's how things are explained whether they'll work for you.

If they don't they'll work for someone else. Take muslim religion - now that was something that was shoved down my throat for most of my life (I'm 48). When both my parents died, I went through divorce etc etc, I was finally able to 'please myself' - guess what ?? I got rid of the Muslim label - for years I was told to believe in something which felt alien to me. My parents didn't know better (for I live in the UK and the Muslim religion was prevalent where they came from). With my little knowledge of their mother tongue and my own being English, Christianity or rather the teachings of Jesus Christ resonate easier with me.

I think there is good in religion, but man 'inter-fears' too much - and where does that fear come from ?? The ego-ic mind. This forum's about LOA etc and that stuff comes from the sub-conscious mind. So, yet again, I'm pointing back to man and his interferences......

Peace to you.

[REDZULU2003]

This couple paragraphs sums up my feelings along with the ideas that basically, man's whole CORRUPTION of religion is the ARROGANT view that "my CHRISTIAN, BUDDHIST, MUSLIM, MORMON, CATHOLIC, (insert religion) view of God is the only correct view and damn you if you don't believe what I do" I have yet to find a religious person who was not truly open minded about religion. It (religion) is honestly one of the most closed minded, (dare I say) brain-washing indoctrinations that exists.

On these forums your meeting lots of religious guys (Myself one Church of England) who are respectful and tolerant of all other religions and thoughts about higher beings and oneself. Many religious people are very respectful, perhaps its where you come from in the US? I know some piece of shit yank burned a Koran and started tons of shit in Afghanistan because he was a loser with no respect for other religions, especially Islam and only his religion counted. Here in the UK we are very open minded, have many places of worship for all religions plus we got the alternative stuff for those who meditate or even worship Satan.

I know some guys think they are god, the source runs via them and we are all god in a sense. Sure if that is your belief go with it.

[REDZULU2003]

No disrespect to you my friend, but I wouldn't get so defensive about religions - just take from them the good that resonate with you and disregard what doesn't.

We are all 'teachers' - man there are things which people on this site have explained fantastically, which I simply haven't understood otherwise. It's how things are explained whether they'll work for you.

If they don't they'll work for someone else. Take muslim religion - now that was something that was shoved down my throat for most of my life (I'm 48). When both my parents died, I went through divorce etc etc, I was finally able to 'please myself' - guess what ?? I got rid of the Muslim label - for years I was told to believe in something which felt alien to me. My parents didn't know better (for I live in the UK and the Muslim religion was prevalent where they came from). With my little knowledge of their mother tongue and my own being English, Christianity or rather the teachings of Jesus Christ resonate easier with me.

I think there is good in religion, but man 'inter-fears' too much - and where does that fear come from ?? The ego-ic mind. This forum's about LOA etc and that stuff comes from the sub-conscious mind. So, yet again, I'm pointing back to man and his interferences......

Peace to you.

Exactly. This sub-forum is about all things religions, Occult, Spiritual, Art and Science really not just LOA. The LOA to me is nothing new at all, nothing fancy. Its used by us all the time if we know or not. Prayers, Meditation, Invocations, Chants all work by either going through yourself (Higher being) via a god or other deity but they all will feed off ENERGY and that when you break it all down and think about it is very much how the LOA comes about and reverts back to the whole universal cosmos thing.

I have known many very successful Jews and they know something many dont, but now they do. This secret is knowing how to unleash and 'manipulate' to your advantage the powers of the universe and is why to some extent 5% of the nation has all the money and power. It didn't happen by accident, sure many work hard for it but the occult has parts to play. These people know the score (Masonry) but now we all have the chance to tap into the potential, what you do from thereon in is your business.

For me this whole debate around 'Do you believe in god' is useless because those who practice anything involving meditation, occult, religion etc are connecting in some way to a god source. Thats my thoughts around it. Those who meditate and claim its all within, well your using energy aswell and this energy isnt all yours ... the whole universe as Quantum Psyhsistcs suggest is a power source, so we are tapping into it ... the god if you like for those who have no thoughts on gods is the UNIVERSE, the cosmos is the ultimate god. God is everything, its power and its all around us ... its just us pathetic humans cant see this yet or the vast majority cannot see this and instead ASSUME god is a person or has to be something we can see or touch.

[Crazy Doc]

Gotta assume you don't have kids then. Babies think about eating and gas, that's about it lol. One can use semantics to prove any argument. There is no question that faith is something one learns about, and certainly not as a baby. If "faith in a god" was inherent-then there would be no atheists. So stretch this concept of "god" all you like, but there's no indication that one baby would know what you are talking about. And the closest thing in theism that you are describing here would be LDS-so maybe you're a mormon and just don't know it yet!

[Crazy Doc]

This couple paragraphs sums up my feelings along with the ideas that basically, man's whole CORRUPTION of religion is the ARROGANT view that "my CHRISTIAN, BUDDHIST, MUSLIM, MORMON, CATHOLIC, (insert religion) view of God is the only correct view and damn you if you don't believe what I do" I have yet to find a religious person who was not truly open minded about religion. It (religion) is honestly one of the most closed minded, (dare I say) brain-washing indoctrinations that exists.


You're not listening very well- I already explained that Buddhists are mostly Atheists, so we have NO view of god, god is a contradictory concept to our fundamental beliefs. My point was that guys that try to twist god into something that really contradict the very foundation of what a god is... are kind of like closet gays... they do all these things that are gay, but then try to deny they are gay lol. It's better to simply know the self and just come out with whatever you are or believe. Also-there are many ATHEIST faiths, so again your statement appears a bit ignorant. None of those believers has ANY view of any god, period.

[Crazy Doc]

No disrespect to you my friend, but I wouldn't get so defensive about religions - just take from them the good that resonate with you and disregard what doesn't.

We are all 'teachers' - man there are things which people on this site have explained fantastically, which I simply haven't understood otherwise. It's how things are explained whether they'll work for you.

If they don't they'll work for someone else. Take muslim religion - now that was something that was shoved down my throat for most of my life (I'm 48). When both my parents died, I went through divorce etc etc, I was finally able to 'please myself' - guess what ?? I got rid of the Muslim label - for years I was told to believe in something which felt alien to me. My parents didn't know better (for I live in the UK and the Muslim religion was prevalent where they came from). With my little knowledge of their mother tongue and my own being English, Christianity or rather the teachings of Jesus Christ resonate easier with me.

I think there is good in religion, but man 'inter-fears' too much - and where does that fear come from ?? The ego-ic mind. This forum's about LOA etc and that stuff comes from the sub-conscious mind. So, yet again, I'm pointing back to man and his interferences......

Peace to you.

If the doctrines are TRUE, there is really no way to twist them. You can't blame man for all the bad and give some god credit for all the good. If what you say were true-then ALL RELIGIONS would kill in the same per capita ratio, yet they DON'T. This indicates a problem with some doctrines, therefore religions, NOT WITH MEN.

[Crazy Doc]

Exactly. This sub-forum is about all things religions, Occult, Spiritual, Art and Science really not just LOA. The LOA to me is nothing new at all, nothing fancy. Its used by us all the time if we know or not. Prayers, Meditation, Invocations, Chants all work by either going through yourself (Higher being) via a god or other deity but they all will feed off ENERGY and that when you break it all down and think about it is very much how the LOA comes about and reverts back to the whole universal cosmos thing.

I have known many very successful Jews and they know something many dont, but now they do. This secret is knowing how to unleash and 'manipulate' to your advantage the powers of the universe and is why to some extent 5% of the nation has all the money and power. It didn't happen by accident, sure many work hard for it but the occult has parts to play. These people know the score (Masonry) but now we all have the chance to tap into the potential, what you do from thereon in is your business.

For me this whole debate around 'Do you believe in god' is useless because those who practice anything involving meditation, occult, religion etc are connecting in some way to a god source. Thats my thoughts around it. Those who meditate and claim its all within, well your using energy aswell and this energy isnt all yours ... the whole universe as Quantum Psyhsistcs suggest is a power source, so we are tapping into it ... the god if you like for those who have no thoughts on gods is the UNIVERSE, the cosmos is the ultimate god. God is everything, its power and its all around us ... its just us pathetic humans cant see this yet or the vast majority cannot see this and instead ASSUME god is a person or has to be something we can see or touch.

Again we see some ignorance here, allow me to repeat: NOT ALL RELIGIONS HAVE A "HIGHER POWER". So you are quite wrong, MOST chants have NOTHING to do with a higher power, only the self. Most chanting is a form of meditation and may involve a mandala. Most mandalas are not depictions of a god, gods, or pantheon of beings. Not sure where you're getting your information zulu.

And by your argument, I could simply redefine pedophilia as "all things" just as you have redefined the concept of god to encapsulate everyone-including hundreds of millions that have NO concept of god nor of a "cosmic being" or whatever. This again is the fallacy of semantics. So back to the point, by your reasoning, I can now say "anyone who does any meditation, chanting, praying or any other faith based activity is a pedophile." Funny how semantics kind of throw out the rule book, idn't it

[doublelongdaddy]

I think a higher power is always a part of belief of existence. I think everyone has a higher power but it may be defined as something completely different.

[Shooting for 7"]

Gotta assume you don't have kids then. Babies think about eating and gas, that's about it lol. One can use semantics to prove any argument. There is no question that faith is something one learns about, and certainly not as a baby. If "faith in a god" was inherent-then there would be no atheists. So stretch this concept of "god" all you like, but there's no indication that one baby would know what you are talking about. And the closest thing in theism that you are describing here would be LDS-so maybe you're a mormon and just don't know it yet!

Crazy Doc I do have a child and let me tell you this - he teaches me so much....about life and how to live it. I assume you have children (by the way you asked me if I did), and no disrespect to you at all, but maybe you aren't very observant ?

Sure babies (not children) care about eating and gassing, but that's done subconsciously, without thinking, just like their breathing etc.

But let me ask you this question..... what do you see is your purpose ?? I mean your higher purpose ?? What are you here on earth, living, for ?? Do you think you have no purpose, that you don't fit with the rest of society, with the human race, with the collective consciousness of those around you and further afield ??

I'm interested in your take on this.

By the way, I suggest to you that children are far more understanding AND ACCEPTING of what 'god' is, it's adults that have the issues......(erm, I wonder where they got those from....)

Peace.

[Shooting for 7"]

If the doctrines are TRUE, there is really no way to twist them. You can't blame man for all the bad and give some god credit for all the good. If what you say were true-then ALL RELIGIONS would kill in the same per capita ratio, yet they DON'T. This indicates a problem with some doctrines, therefore religions, NOT WITH MEN.

Wow, Crazy Doc, I think you do all your thinking from your head and very little, if any, from your heart.....

I'll keep this brief - since I'm not that good at explaining these sorts of things very well !

What if, Crazy Doc, this were the scenario.....

Accept that God has us here to simply be on the planet to love, be truthful and experience joy (to create and to evolve). Suspend any opinions you may have and just follow this for a second. Now, also accept that God doesn't judge us, he has given us FREE WILL to do as we please, but were he to guide us (and he does, in many, many ways by the way), he'd say to do what best serves and assists your fellow man. This is from the heart and with love. With me so far ?? Now, man, in his 'wisdom' and over the centuries develops an ego, has fear, has greed, wants power, wants the quick easy way, messes up this plan - because he starts using his head more and his heart less. Other men soon follow (they are 'human' after all and their egos get in the way as well, too much 'thinking' - i.e. "why should he be allowed to get away with it.."). All the while, God merely observes, never judges, never condemns man to 'hell' (because, actually, there is no such thing as 'hell', just as there is no such thing as a 'devil'. These are all man made constructs to put fear in other men).

So, God has to take the 'blame' in your eyes ?? Why ?? You talk about 'religion'. Why blame God for that ?? What 'good' has man done which should have God step aside since he had no part in it and watch man take the credit ?? The space shuttle or the Hubble telescope ?? The Theory of Relativity ?? Are you saying that man invented these things ?? Or are you willing to accept that man discovered these technologies and put them to good use ?? Surely you are not saying that man is that 'better', that cleverer than God ?? Man is merely discovering that which already exists and making it real (from imagination first).

All I ask is you be a bit more open - think a bit more openly. And don't be so fearful of the unknown and of those who might just be a little more aware/enlightened than yourself and who are coming from love with knowledge about that you know nothing about.

With peace to you.

[Crazy Doc]

Wow, Crazy Doc, I think you do all your thinking from your head and very little, if any, from your heart.....

I'll keep this brief - since I'm not that good at explaining these sorts of things very well !

What if, Crazy Doc, this were the scenario.....

Accept that God has us here to simply be on the planet to love, be truthful and experience joy (to create and to evolve). Suspend any opinions you may have and just follow this for a second. Now, also accept that God doesn't judge us, he has given us FREE WILL to do as we please, but were he to guide us (and he does, in many, many ways by the way), he'd say to do what best serves and assists your fellow man. This is from the heart and with love. With me so far ?? Now, man, in his 'wisdom' and over the centuries develops an ego, has fear, has greed, wants power, wants the quick easy way, messes up this plan - because he starts using his head more and his heart less. Other men soon follow (they are 'human' after all and their egos get in the way as well, too much 'thinking' - i.e. "why should he be allowed to get away with it.."). All the while, God merely observes, never judges, never condemns man to 'hell' (because, actually, there is no such thing as 'hell', just as there is no such thing as a 'devil'. These are all man made constructs to put fear in other men).

So, God has to take the 'blame' in your eyes ?? Why ?? You talk about 'religion'. Why blame God for that ?? What 'good' has man done which should have God step aside since he had no part in it and watch man take the credit ?? The space shuttle or the Hubble telescope ?? The Theory of Relativity ?? Are you saying that man invented these things ?? Or are you willing to accept that man discovered these technologies and put them to good use ?? Surely you are not saying that man is that 'better', that cleverer than God ?? Man is merely discovering that which already exists and making it real (from imagination first).

All I ask is you be a bit more open - think a bit more openly. And don't be so fearful of the unknown and of those who might just be a little more aware/enlightened than yourself and who are coming from love with knowledge about that you know nothing about.

With peace to you.

The issue was NOT god vs man, it was religion vs man on the issue of fault. And statistics will show that religion is to blame-again, otherwise, the doctrine would be irrelevant, evil men would corrupt anything.... yet ... THEY DON'T. But to take it a step further-yes, these gods are indeed DEFINED by their respective doctrines -so if you want to blame the god for the doctrine and all the mayhem it may cause since the doctrine claims the god wrote it through men... well, then I'll go along with that. But the issue here then depends on what the doctrine says, not what you interpret god as-the latter is quite irrelevant to my claims.

[Crazy Doc]

Crazy Doc I do have a child and let me tell you this - he teaches me so much....about life and how to live it. I assume you have children (by the way you asked me if I did), and no disrespect to you at all, but maybe you aren't very observant ?

Sure babies (not children) care about eating and gassing, but that's done subconsciously, without thinking, just like their breathing etc.

But let me ask you this question..... what do you see is your purpose ?? I mean your higher purpose ?? What are you here on earth, living, for ?? Do you think you have no purpose, that you don't fit with the rest of society, with the human race, with the collective consciousness of those around you and further afield ??

I'm interested in your take on this.

By the way, I suggest to you that children are far more understanding AND ACCEPTING of what 'god' is, it's adults that have the issues......(erm, I wonder where they got those from....)

Peace.

My purpose contradicts any concept of a higher power. My purpose is to find true happiness here and now, in this world. And children are not the issue, babies are. Children can be corrupted into thinking it's ok to hit or be abused... yet that belief doesn't make it right, it makes it corruption and nothing more. Babies are clean slates-they know nothing, and they certainly have no knowledge of faith or gods only of their needs-stay on point, the point at hand is BABIES not children, big difference.

I don't deny that you believe in some concept of a god. You know why? Because you have a monopoly on YOUR beliefs. By the same token, it's quite arrogant for you or ANYONE to say broad things like "everyone believes in some concept of god, whether they know it or not". Because you are wrong. Some claims could be made-for example, in Confucianism, they have no concept of "god", but they do believe in "Heaven" but not like the westerner thinks of heaven. More like a force of destiny, or perhaps like George Washington's "Divine Providence". I'll accept a stretch like that - that Confucianism could be argued as both Theist and Atheist, depending on how you interpret the word "theist". But there is no question (to the educated) that there are Atheists out there, and that the majority of them never heard of a god and have no concept of it that you have described, nor otherwise. There is no need in some of our minds for a "higher power" or anything else. To try to twist someone else's beliefs to make yourself feel cozy in your beliefs is also selfish if you ask me lol.

[Crazy Doc]

I think a higher power is always a part of belief of existence. I think everyone has a higher power but it may be defined as something completely different.

I just said several times that I have no higher power... So I guess you think you know my mind better than I do DLD? Also, please elaborate on your first statement-demonstrate how a higher power MUST be part of belief in existence? I'm truly curious.

[doublelongdaddy]

I just said several times that I have no higher power... So I guess you think you know my mind better than I do DLD? Also, please elaborate on your first statement-demonstrate how a higher power MUST be part of belief in existence? I'm truly curious.

Do you talk to yourself in your mind? How do you make choices? It is the consciousness that is the higher power. The sense of self and the conversations with self are just like prayers or meditation, it is all the same. Religion puts names and faces to this but ALL PEOPLE have consciousness and this is that sense of self that I am referring to.

[Crazy Doc]

Do you talk to yourself in your mind? How do you make choices? It is the consciousness that is the higher power. The sense of self and the conversations with self are just like prayers or meditation, it is all the same. Religion puts names and faces to this but ALL PEOPLE have consciousness and this is that sense of self that I am referring to.

"Sense of self"? yes. "Higher Power"? No, and you've not demonstrated that. You can call it that, sure, but you've not connected the two to show it. I can claim my penis is Jesus Christ too... but I can't imagine how I'd show it to be true as I'm not willing to put any nails in my balls.

[Alex78]

Do you talk to yourself in your mind? How do you make choices? It is the consciousness that is the higher power. The sense of self and the conversations with self are just like prayers or meditation, it is all the same. Religion puts names and faces to this but ALL PEOPLE have consciousness and this is that sense of self that I am referring to.

Well knowing that Providence or God or Higher Power exists does not really give you relief, knowing that your consciousness is linked or a masked mirror of god, does not help you, we all just utter the words of saints and preachers, but none of us with a direct link to the ones we so much want.
I have never met enlightened ones but read and talked about them..
I do want to believe, i do want...but years of fruitless meditation gave no hope.... i still believe, maybe not for me, maybe Providence does play favorites among men....

[Crazy Doc]

Well knowing that Providence or God or Higher Power exists does not really give you relief, knowing that your consciousness is linked or a masked mirror of god, does not help you, we all just utter the words of saints and preachers, but none of us with a direct link to the ones we so much want.
I have never met enlightened ones but read and talked about them..
I do want to believe, i do want...but years of fruitless meditation gave no hope.... i still believe, maybe not for me, maybe Providence does play favorites among men....

I have been fortunate enough to have what I would call "moments of truth" through meditation (chanting)... And I learned the following: That everything I thought I knew was wrong and that I really knew nothing, that it perhaps may require the depths of despair to find oneself (the most beautiful blossom comes out of the mud?), that eternity (past, present, and future) are in the moment, that I control my own destiny and always had (which meant I could not blame anyone for anything that happened to me-it was all MY doing), and that wisdom is NOT property-you cannot own it, you can only appreciate it and try to hold on to it when you have it-but it has NOTHING to do with age, experience, or knowledge, it is simply awareness of life, of the self.

And I am fortunate, one who never seeks will never find, and even when one seeks-without sincerity, efforts are almost worthless. Sincerity is the key, as only through sincerity can one find the humility to discover truth/wisdom, but true sincerity is a hard thing to drum up in the darkened, karmic, human mind.

[REDZULU2003]

Crazy Doc you seem to know allot about this stuff I grant you that. Much more than I do thats for certain. I would appreictae if you shared more of your actual knowledge on meditation and that portion to your life in new threads within this section. You would be the first ''expert'' if you like that has posted in here on such topics as meditation and has so much knowledge on it so please feel free to make new threads and add topics, not just to this one but thats not a hint saying shut the fuck up ... keep going all day everyday if you like, that is what MOS is here for ... its very much now become a virtual psychiatrist and counselling session rolled into one :)

[Crazy Doc]

Crazy Doc you seem to know allot about this stuff I grant you that. Much more than I do thats for certain. I would appreictae if you shared more of your actual knowledge on meditation and that portion to your life in new threads within this section. You would be the first ''expert'' if you like that has posted in here on such topics as meditation and has so much knowledge on it so please feel free to make new threads and add topics, not just to this one but thats not a hint saying shut the fuck up ... keep going all day everyday if you like, that is what MOS is here for ... its very much now become a virtual psychiatrist and counselling session rolled into one :)

Well zulu-I know A LOT about a very FEW things :) Faith is pretty personal to me, so I don't know how much I'd want to go into it on an open forum. Meditation also, is very broad. I know a lot about chanting to a mandala, which is one way to do it-and it is the core of my faith. I also recite the sutra (Lotus Sutra). I do really enjoy discussing theology in general, be it mine or someone else's. The only other thing I would say here is that-meditation DOES work if done properly, but the benefit is wisdom-and wisdom is not really something easy to describe, ya? Either way, I'm always willing to answer questions if asked-but it's just not my style to start preaching or lecturing about my faith, unless someone brings up something I feel the need to respond to, or I'm asked directly about it.

Also-let me clarify, again, wisdom is NOT property-so yes, I've done it right before and Yes, in those moments I was wise... and you don't forget truth, but wisdom is not KNOWING the truth, it is living it-that's the part that is slippery and hard to hold onto. Anyone can get knowledge, wisdom is in the moment alone.
Point being-I'm not very wise anymore.

[MAXAMEYES]

I always gotta chuckle when I hear folks say things like "I have no higher power" or, "I'm totally in control of my own destiny".
I chuckle because if these folks have to ever bail out of a flaming aircraft they will believe, without a doubt, that at least fire and gravity are far higher powers than they are.

On the way down I guarantee prayers will be offered to everything from God to pencil shavings and destiny, gravity, fire, the all-too-sudden-stop at the bottom...whatever will not give one single shit for those who are praying.

Sometimes circumstance has all the good cards.

[Crazy Doc]

I always gotta chuckle when I hear folks say things like "I have no higher power" or, "I'm totally in control of my own destiny".
I chuckle because if these folks have to ever bail out of a flaming aircraft they will believe, without a doubt, that at least fire and gravity are far higher powers than they are.

On the way down I guarantee prayers will be offered to everything from God to pencil shavings and destiny, gravity, fire, the all-too-sudden-stop at the bottom...whatever will not give one single shit for those who are praying.

Sometimes circumstance has all the good cards.

Nonsense, those are EARTHLY powers. Higher Powers are not just anything you can think of folks-they mean something greater, something greater than what we see. And Max, how do you know my faith hasn't been tested in the face of death already? So by your logic, even folks that never heard of a god would pray to one, perhaps a random one if they fell off a building or something? That's really stupid dude. Faith is. Obviously if I fell out of a plane, or whatever, I'd practice MY faith-it's COMPLETELY idiotic max to say you know I'd suddenly drop my faith and practice some other faith-I mean really, that's one of the silliest things I've heard this year.

Do tell, why would I do that? Wouldn't I practice my faith-the thing I believe in? Why would I suddenly drop my beliefs and practice someone else's faith? That makes no sense. And just because you don't realize you're in control of your destiny max-doesn't mean you are not.

Let's say a drunk driver crashes into someone and causes them paralysis. Let's look at the potential destiny options here:

1/ An all knowing but good god did this-to test the victim's faith (for the rest of their life).
2/ Chance.
3/ Karma: Something they did caused that to happen-they pulled it into their life, after all it happened to THEM, not the guy in front of them, not the guy behind.

Consider now which one sounds the most ridiculous to you!

Also Max-it is a bit foolish to assume everyone sees things the way you do. I don't fear death. I fear an incomplete life. Death to me is just as natural, and just as painful as being born. I don't see it as a bad thing. It is unlikely you and I view death the same way on any level due to different beliefs and culture. But go ahead and assume everyone thinks like you do-I'm sure I'm just confused and you know more about my life and behavior and that of all others - than I do and they do.

*bows down to max the great*

[Crazy Doc]

I always gotta chuckle when I hear folks say things like "I have no higher power" or, "I'm totally in control of my own destiny".
I chuckle because if these folks have to ever bail out of a flaming aircraft they will believe, without a doubt, that at least fire and gravity are far higher powers than they are.

On the way down I guarantee prayers will be offered to everything from God to pencil shavings and destiny, gravity, fire, the all-too-sudden-stop at the bottom...whatever will not give one single shit for those who are praying.

Sometimes circumstance has all the good cards.

Also-to counter your specific point about fire. I'd mention an example to prove you wrong, and that you don't know people as well as you think.

During the Vietnam War, Buddhist Monks set themselves on fire, on fucking fire, in protest. And max, they didn't scream, they didn't blink. They sat in perfect silence and stillness as fire burned the flesh off their bodies-and consumed them to their deaths. So even if you wish to argue fire is more powerful (and therefore "higher") than man-those men proved you WRONG. Clearly they were more powerful than fire as it had no effect on their minds.

Isn't it possible Max that you've underestimated the true power of the human mind?

Lastly-while Buddhist, those men I describe are nothing like my sect, quite irrelevant to my faith-but they did demonstrate that your point about fire is quite false.

Go to about 1:00, apparently they won't show the video (censored), but this still tells the story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuSHA0OKEkc

[Crazy Doc]

Ah here we go, here's the real deal:

FIRE IS NOT A HIGHER POWER... Man possesses every power there is, therefore there is no higher power, nor any lower power, for all things have the same power...
This video is quite harsh:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjpAh4rqTv4

[MAXAMEYES]

And yet, I didn't name anyone in particular. Did I?

[Crazy Doc]

And yet, I didn't name anyone in particular. Did I?

Of course you did, you named me-you quoted someone and that someone was me. What kind of mickey mouse horseshit is that, quit backpeddling.
My point about fire, higher powers, how men will react to death is based on reason, and evidence.
Yours is more like wishful thinking-I guess that debate is over.
The closed mind chuckles a lot!

[MAXAMEYES]

And you assume I have an agenda.

[Crazy Doc]

And you assume I have an agenda.

Not at all, I assume you think you know everything as you seem to scoff at everything new :)

[MAXAMEYES]

(chuckles)
Believe me, nothing you've posted is new. Nothing.
Not at all, I assume you think you know everything as you seem to scoff at everything new :)

[Priapus90]

I believe God exists!! I can't prove it to you, never saw him... but I know what i feel inside me! I know a lot of people may argue with that! I used to work in a nursing home and I've seen some die screaming, not cause they were in pain but cause they saw something comin at the end! Others I've seen die in peace and slip off with a smile on their faces! I think there is a God and I think in the end we will all meet him!! Not tryin to argue, just how I believe!!

[Crazy Doc]

(chuckles)
Believe me, nothing you've posted is new. Nothing.

It's statements like that that prove my point, you know it all max :)

[MAXAMEYES]

Naw, you're just predictable.
& redundant.
It's statements like that that prove my point, you know it all max :)

[Crazy Doc]

Naw, you're just predictable.
& redundant.

Sorry, let me revise: You know everything and you'll disagree with whatever I say lol. It's amazing how small one's body of knowledge is when they think they cannot learn from 99% of the population! Oh, but you already knew I'd say that... and you knew I'd tear your silly "burning airplane" argument to shreds too... that's why you said all that stuff and watched me make it look idiotic, perhaps it's a masochism fetish... oh wait, you already knew I'd say that. Yes, I truly DO believe you've learned nothing from me Max lol.

[MAXAMEYES]

Just can't separate the post from the person, can ya?

[Crazy Doc]

Just can't separate the post from the person, can ya?

Do you always talk in slogans? Hmm former AA member maybe max or just unoriginal?

[Alex78]

Hey guys get this on topic, go to mail chat, this bitter attacking on one another is not really the god like way for us to contribute to these posts!
Topic was all scientific and spiritual now it is going on the street...

[Crazy Doc]

Hey guys get this on topic, go to mail chat, this bitter attacking on one another is not really the god like way for us to contribute to these posts!
Topic was all scientific and spiritual now it is going on the street...

Um, I'm pretty sure it started with a "gold level support" member calling me a liar. I guess moderators don't have to follow the rules. I was just defending myself Alex.

[stillwantmore2]

You're not listening very well- I already explained that Buddhists are mostly Atheists, so we have NO view of god, god is a contradictory concept to our fundamental beliefs. My point was that guys that try to twist god into something that really contradict the very foundation of what a god is... are kind of like closet gays... they do all these things that are gay, but then try to deny they are gay lol. It's better to simply know the self and just come out with whatever you are or believe. Also-there are many ATHEIST faiths, so again your statement appears a bit ignorant. None of those believers has ANY view of any god, period.

I was replying in a very generalized way. Also replying on what I have experienced personally. I've never met an atheist with a faith, that sounds interesting.

I'd like to point out the fact that having a logical discussion does not include repeatedly pointing out ignorance. Rather, enlighten someone if you feel you have an opposing or more informed point of view ;)

[REDZULU2003]

Lets respect each other and realise we have our OWN views. Keep this civil and professional guys. Come on this is a good thread dont ruin it.

[Priapus90]

Lets respect each other and realise we have our OWN views. Keep this civil and professional guys. Come on this is a good thread dont ruin it.

I agree RED! Lets just all say weather we believe or not, why or why not, and leave it at that!! LOL!! :D

[Crazy Doc]

I was replying in a very generalized way. Also replying on what I have experienced personally. I've never met an atheist with a faith, that sounds interesting.

I'd like to point out the fact that having a logical discussion does not include repeatedly pointing out ignorance. Rather, enlighten someone if you feel you have an opposing or more informed point of view ;)

I hear you there... but it's pretty rude for a bunch of people to say "no, you do too have a higher power!" lol... It get's old.

[doublelongdaddy]

In my opinion it is smart to believe in God because if you don't and he is real it would really suck when you pass :) I would rather have faith and play it safe.

[Alex78]

In my opinion it is smart to believe in God because if you don't and he is real it would really suck when you pass :) I would rather have faith and play it safe.

This is exactly what a preacher wants you to!
Does not care if you do, just say you do, so that you encourage others..
If God exist he gave you free will and part of it is that you can believe what you want...


This kind of thinking is not God knowing, you cannot insult an entity that exists everywhere and nowhere at once, your mind cannot comprehend what god is only what he is not!
How can you insult God by saying something against God!
How can you do it? Can you even point a finger and say i insult you!
looks like we only insult what we think God is!

[Crazy Doc]

In my opinion it is smart to believe in God because if you don't and he is real it would really suck when you pass :) I would rather have faith and play it safe.

That's seemingly a good argument DLD-but I bet you haven't really thought it out. Now if there were only 2 choices-God or No God, you'd (from a logic standpoint) be correct.... it would be safer to hedge your bets and believe in God.

But the reality is, there are hundreds of gods.... so this means that the odds just got much worse-if you pray to the wrong god, or make up your own god (still praying to the wrong god unless you got lucky) you're still gonna piss him off and get his wrath ya?

So now that we've stretched the scenario to realism-which is hundreds (really THOUSANDS) of god choices... there is only one logical choice to make, all else held equal:

Choose the god with the WORST PUNISHMENT as you are guaranteed at least now, not to get the worst punishment. And guess what, it ain't the christian, jewish, or islamic god-those are all child's play compared to the punishments some gods give out.

[Crazy Doc]

I'm shocked nobody has commented on the burning monk-who sits still and doesn't make a sound. Arguments aside-this has got to be one of the most fantastic demonstrations of mental control in history.

[MAXAMEYES]

Here's my original response, from about a year-and-a-half ago.
I think it still applies:

Re: do you believe in God?
In response to this question I usually have to ask for clarification:
"To which particular definition of God are you referring?"

And remember; belief, by its nature and definition, requires no proof, simply belief

[Alex78]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/38/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c_self-immolation.jpg


David Halberstam wrote:

I was to see that sight again, but once was enough. Flames were coming from a human being; his body was slowly withering and shriveling up, his head blackening and charring. In the air was the smell of burning human flesh; human beings burn surprisingly quickly. Behind me I could hear the sobbing of the Vietnamese who were now gathering. I was too shocked to cry, too confused to take notes or ask questions, too bewildered to even think... As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him.[24]


After his death, his body was re-cremated, but his heart remained intact.[2][3] This was interpreted as a symbol of compassion and led Buddhists to revere him as a Bodhisattva, heightening the impact of his death on the public psyche.


Looks like he achieved some higher states of conscience, he could detach from the body in order to stay calm and feel no pain..
Truly a remarkable feet of strength and body control!

[doublelongdaddy]

That's seemingly a good argument DLD-but I bet you haven't really thought it out. Now if there were only 2 choices-God or No God, you'd (from a logic standpoint) be correct.... it would be safer to hedge your bets and believe in God.

But the reality is, there are hundreds of gods.... so this means that the odds just got much worse-if you pray to the wrong god, or make up your own god (still praying to the wrong god unless you got lucky) you're still gonna piss him off and get his wrath ya?

So now that we've stretched the scenario to realism-which is hundreds (really THOUSANDS) of god choices... there is only one logical choice to make, all else held equal:

Choose the god with the WORST PUNISHMENT as you are guaranteed at least now, not to get the worst punishment. And guess what, it ain't the christian, jewish, or islamic god-those are all child's play compared to the punishments some gods give out.


I have thought it out and I still stand by it; Better to believe in God than not, if it turns out he does not exist you lose nothing, if he is real you gain everything...I will play it safe and praise my God.

[doublelongdaddy]

And remember; belief, by its nature and definition, requires no proof, simply belief

Yup

[Crazy Doc]

I have thought it out and I still stand by it; Better to believe in God than not, if it turns out he does not exist you lose nothing, if he is real you gain everything...I will play it safe and praise my God.

K, then you didn't read my response as it invalidates the logic of this argument-the argument only works if there are 2 choices... that's more like economics lol, the reality is there are 1000s which means the argument won't hold water.

[doublelongdaddy]

K, then you didn't read my response as it invalidates the logic of this argument-the argument only works if there are 2 choices... that's more like economics lol, the reality is there are 1000s which means the argument won't hold water.

Dude, Just because you think this was does not make it correct, it makes it a personal choice. I still stand by my logic 100%

[Crazy Doc]

Dude, Just because you think this was does not make it correct, it makes it a personal choice. I still stand by my logic 100%

I'm not arguing with anyone's personal faith-as I've said everyone has a monopoly on their own faith. But the argument is flawed if we are speaking of logic without faith. Because there are 1000s of gods, the odds are - you don't have the right one, and will incur his punishment, just like the atheist. With that in mind-the atheist makes more sense because both guys are fucked, but the atheist never wasted his time.

[REDZULU2003]

Regarding the burning monk - Shocking but in a respectful way. These people are renown for the abilities they have. The fact his heart remained intact afterwards says something to me! That did NOT happen by coincidence! A sign, message to those around and they knew(know) it. Peace to him.

What I will say regarding the 1000's of gods is its all swings & roundabouts. Depends on what religion you are because the Islamic faith isnt going to entertain the gods in the Sikh faith and vice versa with the other religions. They keep to their own teachings and belief systems. These 1000's of gods are again mans interpretation of gods, not saying they are not gods but who's to say they are not all working onm behalf of a more superior force anyway? these 1000's of gods could be all the same god but the different cultures and regions have a spin to how 'it' would look and act.

So in truth 1000's of gods could be brought down to 100's of gods and even less. If it were to be 1000's of gods anyhow it doesn't matter because they still have power even if it doesn't exist because of the energy building over the years from the prayers and worshipping has literally created deities that may have never existed. When I practised the occult years ago and my teacher at the time would tell me about how mans constant beliefs in gods would create an entity even if it wasn't in the first place ... believe so much and it will happen sort of thing and so over the millennia the constant minds have potentially done that ... this is hard to grasp for the average layman but in 'magic' its done all the time with what are called in Chaos Magic as Servitors.

Anyway according to the faith the god/s is different and for the most part perhaps lets say or suggest even that regions (Cultures) interpretation of the higher powers around them, that something has to be greater than them to worship. The Mayans and Aztec's sacrificed people to satisfy their gods and again they had 100's and 100's.

I find it difficult to put my full feelings into words because its complex but all the gods in all religions and other arts are essentially interlinked and related i.e. sun gods, moon gods etc The higher self to me is also strongly related to ones own Guardian Angel or Spirit Guide, but that's like religion and god if you believe in it albeit I have communicated directly with mine and anyone can with practice.

In the bible it does say about not taking up the names of other gods on ones lips, so its not encouraged in some faiths whereas in others they have multiple. Again back to the thread name do you believe in god? YES and I believe in many other spirits and deities around us. Allot of this I think with gods is very reletaed to the heavens and the universe in general. The planets have their own powers and can be used by special sigils and numbers used for 1000's and 1000's of years. They are like the moon and have influence on things here. I mention this because gods, universe, space, planets, time all are together for me and only now are we becommming more receptive to it ... quantum physics is explaining more and we start to scratch the surface ... Science will never accept god/s because it will never fully accept what cannot be seen but remember this ... what is seen is never eternal but what cannot be seen remains eternal forever! If you cannot see it does not mean it is not there ... again as humans we are simple in essence, we do not know allot really about the universe and think we know everything :) That we could even perhaps be the only life around ahhahahaahah what wank!!! who believes that needs to be shot, sorry but who is that niave? As humans on earth we have a purpose ... what? who knows YET ... the Dinosaurs were here before us what was their purpose? can it be deciphered? they were massive and roamed the earth but in the end they were destroyed by what many call an act of god! t

[Crazy Doc]

Regarding the burning monk - Shocking but in a respectful way. These people are renown for the abilities they have. The fact his heart remained intact afterwards says something to me! That did NOT happen by coincidence! A sign, message to those around and they knew(know) it. Peace to him.

What I will say regarding the 1000's of gods is its all swings & roundabouts. Depends on what religion you are because the Islamic faith isnt going to entertain the gods in the Sikh faith and vice versa with the other religions. They keep to their own teachings and belief systems. These 1000's of gods are again mans interpretation of gods, not saying they are not gods but who's to say they are not all working onm behalf of a more superior force anyway? these 1000's of gods could be all the same god but the different cultures and regions have a spin to how 'it' would look and act.

So in truth 1000's of gods could be brought down to 100's of gods and even less. If it were to be 1000's of gods anyhow it doesn't matter because they still have power even if it doesn't exist because of the energy building over the years from the prayers and worshipping has literally created deities that may have never existed. When I practised the occult years ago and my teacher at the time would tell me about how mans constant beliefs in gods would create an entity even if it wasn't in the first place ... believe so much and it will happen sort of thing and so over the millennia the constant minds have potentially done that ... this is hard to grasp for the average layman but in 'magic' its done all the time with what are called in Chaos Magic as Servitors.

Anyway according to the faith the god/s is different and for the most part perhaps lets say or suggest even that regions (Cultures) interpretation of the higher powers around them, that something has to be greater than them to worship. The Mayans and Aztec's sacrificed people to satisfy their gods and again they had 100's and 100's.

I find it difficult to put my full feelings into words because its complex but all the gods in all religions and other arts are essentially interlinked and related i.e. sun gods, moon gods etc The higher self to me is also strongly related to ones own Guardian Angel or Spirit Guide, but that's like religion and god if you believe in it albeit I have communicated directly with mine and anyone can with practice.

In the bible it does say about not taking up the names of other gods on ones lips, so its not encouraged in some faiths whereas in others they have multiple. Again back to the thread name do you believe in god? YES and I believe in many other spirits and deities around us. Allot of this I think with gods is very reletaed to the heavens and the universe in general. The planets have their own powers and can be used by special sigils and numbers used for 1000's and 1000's of years. They are like the moon and have influence on things here. I mention this because gods, universe, space, planets, time all are together for me and only now are we becommming more receptive to it ... quantum physics is explaining more and we start to scratch the surface ... Science will never accept god/s because it will never fully accept what cannot be seen but remember this ... what is seen is never eternal but what cannot be seen remains eternal forever! If you cannot see it does not mean it is not there ... again as humans we are simple in essence, we do not know allot really about the universe and think we know everything :) That we could even perhaps be the only life around ahhahahaahah what wank!!! who believes that needs to be shot, sorry but who is that niave? As humans on earth we have a purpose ... what? who knows YET ... the Dinosaurs were here before us what was their purpose? can it be deciphered? they were massive and roamed the earth but in the end they were destroyed by what many call an act of god! t

Good stuff zulu, just one comment: Worship is not inherently to something greater than yourself. For example, in my faith-the "object of worship' is described as a mirror. And that is precisely what it is-a mirror to see one's life clearly. But it is still something I worship, even though it is me. If it's me, it cannot be higher than me.

Mine is not the only faith that would take exception to the "worship requires a higher power" claim. Just wanted to mention that. I would agree it is USUALLY the case, but not always.

[doublelongdaddy]

Good stuff zulu, just one comment: Worship is not inherently to something greater than yourself. For example, in my faith-the "object of worship' is described as a mirror. And that is precisely what it is-a mirror to see one's life clearly. But it is still something I worship, even though it is me. If it's me, it cannot be higher than me.

Mine is not the only faith that would take exception to the "worship requires a higher power" claim. Just wanted to mention that. I would agree it is USUALLY the case, but not always.


But worshiping yourself is still worship, which means your higher power is yourself.

[Crazy Doc]

But worshiping yourself is still worship, which means your higher power is yourself.

lol good one. Sorry, no higher powers here. If you speak Japanese to a British that doesn't know Japanese-not a word will make sense. That's where were at here. Unless you know something about a faith that lacks a higher power-you likely just won't get it.

[MAXAMEYES]

Or, perhaps, the future self that you desire to become.
Or recognize that you need to become.
Advancement is always necessary.
But worshiping yourself is still worship, which means your higher power is yourself.

[Crazy Doc]

Or, perhaps, the future self that you desire to become.
Or recognize that you need to become.
Advancement is always necessary.

Wow.. we AGREE for once-on the last part, I don't think we're ever finished, there is no final goal. But I don't agree with the future part. It's a "here and now" thing and I've experienced it-a fundamental change in the self in a single instant. I would describe it more like "polishing my life", day after day.

[MAXAMEYES]

As physical beings we have "time" to deal with, no getting around that. Spiritually, conceptually even, maybe not so much. But "the future" need only be a thought ahead.
Wow.. we AGREE for once-on the last part, I don't think we're ever finished, there is no final goal. But I don't agree with the future part. It's a "here and now" thing and I've experienced it-a fundamental change in the self in a single instant. I would describe it more like "polishing my life", day after day.