View Full Version : Another Religion Thread- The Crucifixian
I know, I know, not another damn religion thread. But I really get into talking about religion- especially Christianity. So, let's talk about Jesus' crucifixian. If Jesus was indeed a brilliant and crafty a man as Christians say, or God in human form, he was well aware of what happenings his ministry would set in motion. So, why was it necessary to continue along this path? Why do you think he found it necessary to push his enemies to the threshold of killing him? As God he could have easily avoided committing suicide by this rather oblique route, and continued preaching, yet that's what he did.
Is there some reason Jesus could not have lived to a ripe old age? Would it not have still brought salvation to those who believe in him? Or was his crucifixion etc. just a publicity stunt, pulled off to make his story a better sell? if God was indeed in the ground for 3 days, who was in charge of heaven, was it this guy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hasselhoff)
SwedishChef
07-19-06, 08:10 PM
It wouldn't have been as dramatic? Which do you think sounds more like an epic legend:
"He hung on the heavy wooden cross with whip wounds all over is battered body, and after a Roman solider stabbed him in his chest with his lance, the son of god died."
or
"He lived to be a ripe old Jewish man, going down to the market every Tuesday to preach, barter for fake beards and buy a nice apple crisp to enjoy at home with a school of nice Vanilla ice cream and some Miracle Whip."
It wouldn't have been as dramatic? Which do you think sounds more like an epic legend:
"He hung on the heavy wooden cross with whip wounds all over is battered body, and after a Roman solider stabbed him in his chest with his lance, the son of god died."
or
"He lived to be a ripe old Jewish man, going down to the market every Tuesday to preach, barter for fake beards and buy a nice apple crisp to enjoy at home with a school of nice Vanilla ice cream and some Miracle Whip."
Of course the former is more picturesque and/or dramatic. But this is my whole point. If Jesus was God in the flesh, then he is omniscient correct? If that's true, he committed suicide by letting himself get killed knowingly. As suicide is defined as "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself. " ref. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suicide) But the idea of anything, much less the crucifixion, is all faith. I'd say the story of getting yourself double-crossed, wisked away for judgement, found guilty, and then enduring a very picturesque death, Plus dissapearing from your grave is definetly a much better story than holding a few sermons to preach a message, then simply relinquishing life and that's all.
SwedishChef
07-19-06, 11:42 PM
....What exactly are we arguing/discussing again?
if God was indeed in the ground for 3 days, who was in charge of heaven, was it this guy?
God is also described at omnipotent, so he wouldn't have to get Mr Hoff to manage Heaven. He could be on Earth, watch the Godfather 5 times and do the taxes at the same time.
Juggers
07-20-06, 12:53 AM
Jesus lived to fulfill the prophecies of the old testament. Your taking what the bible states out of cont-ex and putting it rather bluntly...God cannot die, he is spirit. However, God can send himself down to earth as a Son and die as a human...think about it, he is God. The fact is, Jesus' death on the cross, however unnecessary it may seem to you is the only thing that pleases God enough to have mercy on you. Furthermore, the crucifixion was the worst punishment he could have gotten from the people at that time...symbolically, our sins were crucified on the cross with him so that we would be without sin if we believed in him. Its all really in the bible...why he died, why God sent him. I dont know if that helped you at all but this topic is really hard to discuss.
The BTC Killer
07-20-06, 02:30 PM
It is written that Jesus new of his fate and that was his destiny. Without the sacrifice, Christianity just wouldn't be the same. My wife said, "I will leave you, if I don't go to church with me." I was like, "what would Jesus say?" That's not the proper attitude of a Christian!
In conclusion...
<center>
"http://fileserver1.jpghosting.com/images/7_1d745d9595e2c01c069eb1968786e0aa.jpg I have to go to church"</center>
Jesus lived to fulfill the prophecies of the old testament.
Yes, and uphold all of the OT cruelties (stoning disobedient children, beating slaves, etc, etc, etc) as well. I'm sure you wouldn't want to argue this (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:17&version=31), as you wouldn't want to disagree with the carpenter, would you?
Your taking what the bible states out of cont-ex and putting it rather bluntly...God cannot die, he is spirit.
Out of context? In all my experience, that seems to be the consensus from Christians when their Holy Book is shown to have errors in it. If you say I'm taking a verse out of context, you're practically admitting it's fallibe and open to interpretation. If it's infallible, it's impossible for fallible humans to take something perfect out of context.
However, God can send himself down to earth as a Son and die as a human...think about it, he is God.
You're correct, sure he can, but that would mean he desires blood sacrifices then. Because if that's the case, sometime he decided to commit cannibalism on himself. Certain sects of Christianity cannot even come to agreement about whether Jesus was God or if he was the son, Jesus even seems confused.
The fact is, Jesus' death on the cross, however unnecessary it may seem to you is the only thing that pleases God enough to have mercy on you.
Just a little tip here- You should probably stop talking for your God. If I adulated him, I sure as hell wouldn't want to tick him off, he's one mean S.O.B.:) Let me ask you something Juggers, seriously, do you believe in Santa, the Easter bunny, Allah?
Furthermore, the crucifixion was the worst punishment he could have gotten from the people at that time...
Agreed. But there's no proof of a crucifixian. Throughout all of the Roman records, there's no proof, hell there's not even proof of a Jesus. If one cannot prove it, you shouldn't base an entire religion off of baseless dogma.
symbolically, our sins were crucified on the cross with him so that we would be without sin if we believed in him.
Wow, what a waste of time this little stunt was, sin is still plentiful in the world. This "God" fellow is a real screwup, as he must of fell asleep considering the sin issue, as he could have made us perfect from the start, then he wouldn't have to kill all of humanity except 9 people in the biggest wholesale genocide ever in the flood.
Its all really in the bible...
See, there's my problem. Don't get me wrong, the bible is quite a page turner. I have read it in it's entirety. But the bible simply defies all common sense and reason, it's just an article of faith. It has nothing to do with rationality. I would think you need faith in order to buy into an incoherent, contradictory collection of books. I take the bible about as seriously as a tabloid.:)
why he died, why God sent him. I dont know if that helped you at all but this topic is really hard to discuss.
Yea, yea, I apologize if I come off kinda rude, but I just get on edge when people spew all this stuff and all they have to offer is a book full of contradictions. In ending my part, I used to be a Christian, reading the bible turned me into an athiest. I refuse to follow the rest of the herd and believe in something which I know is in question, it's being dishonest with yourself. I refuse to submit to the Christian superstition, as it seems all who do not believe will be tortured and killed.
Juggers
07-20-06, 10:04 PM
All of your opinions are as valid as mine Kal-el. It is a book of exactly that, faith, and a person either WANTS to beleive willingly, even though he or she isn't exactly sure what is going on. Call it blind faith, but thats life. This is the beauty of it all, you said you were a Christain at one point and used to read the bible, but that in turn, transformed you into an athiest. It would appear to me that you have little faith, and are living on reason alone. But then again I don't know you at all so I am probably wrong. Anyone can argue about the bible being a lie and God not existing, but it takes curage and a sense of purpose to actually live in the faith you proclaim.
All of your opinions are as valid as mine Kal-el. It is a book of exactly that, faith, and a person either WANTS to beleive willingly, even though he or she isn't exactly sure what is going on. Call it blind faith, but thats life. This is the beauty of it all, you said you were a Christain at one point and used to read the bible, but that in turn, transformed you into an athiest. It would appear to me that you have little faith, and are living on reason alone. But then again I don't know you at all so I am probably wrong. Anyone can argue about the bible being a lie and God not existing, but it takes curage and a sense of purpose to actually live in the faith you proclaim.
Great diatribe their Juggers, and I agree with you 100%. I'd say the big thing in my life that got me questioning, was in 2000, when I was hospitalized because of a certain illness I have. I kept asking myself, please God make me better, day after day. And you know what, I did get better, but it was because of the antibiotic I.V.s, and all the medicine I was on, no supernatural sky pixie. I did alot of thinking in the hospital, and I came up with the fact that it's a logically impossibility to be omnibenevolent (perfectly loving, loving all of his children), and omnipotent (all powerful, can solvent anything) at the same time. There's too much evil in this world for a loving, all-powerful skydaddy to exist. Mankind has compounded way too much sufferings for an omnimax mystical, God to exist. A while after my hospital stay, I actually sat down and managed to plow through the Bible, mostly to get some answers, and see what all this God business was about. I got answers alright, but not the ones I was looking for. I think the Bible is the most murderous, gruesome book that man has ever concocted. I don't get why some parents forbid their children to play violent video games, but then hand them Bibles, go figure.
Juggers
07-20-06, 11:34 PM
Great diatribe their Juggers, and I agree with you 100%. I'd say the big thing in my life that got me questioning, was in 2000, when I was hospitalized because of a certain illness I have. I kept asking myself, please God make me better, day after day. And you know what, I did get better, but it was because of the antibiotic I.V.s, and all the medicine I was on, no supernatural sky pixie. I did alot of thinking in the hospital, and I came up with the fact that it's a logically impossibility to be omnibenevolent (perfectly loving, loving all of his children), and omnipotent (all powerful, can solvent anything) at the same time. There's too much evil in this world for a loving, all-powerful skydaddy to exist. Mankind has compounded way too much sufferings for an omnimax mystical, God to exist. A while after my hospital stay, I actually sat down and managed to plow through the Bible, mostly to get some answers, and see what all this God business was about. I got answers alright, but not the ones I was looking for. I think the Bible is the most murderous, gruesome book that man has ever concocted. I don't get why some parents forbid their children to play violent video games, but then hand them Bibles, go figure.
So it was cause and effect for you...something happened to you that changed your perspective on life, something that made you question your faith, ultimately changing you for better or worse. Instead of giving God the credit of saving your life or having mercy on you, you lend the hand to technology and science. Again its a decision you choose to believe, was God in your favor, or did you just get lucky? I don't know what to tell you, but I can tell you that I have prayed, and miracles have happened that I can't explain. You expected God to intervene, you wanted to get better and you did.
Juggers
07-20-06, 11:41 PM
I just found out what diatribe ment and I didn't mean for it to sound like that, if it did lol.
So it was cause and effect for you...something happened to you that changed your perspective on life, something that made you question your faith, ultimately changing you for better or worse. Instead of giving God the credit of saving your life or having mercy on you, you lend the hand to technology and science. Again its a decision you choose to believe, was God in your favor, or did you just get lucky? I don't know what to tell you, but I can tell you that I have prayed, and miracles have happened that I can't explain. You expected God to intervene, you wanted to get better and you did.
Juggers, why would I give an invisable man credit for something? To be fair though, if you give him credit for answered prayers (Btw, what is the purpose of prayer, what can we possibly tell an all knowing entity that it doesn't already know?) also credit him for the bad happenings. When something bad happens, I hear Christians blame it on man's free will. Well, that doesn't get this "God" fellow off the hook at all. A loving god would not allow free will if it is the cause of human evil. If he did indeed create everything, he created the conditions necessary for the said event to take place, hence he is either directly or indirectly responsible for everything that goes down.
It is written that Jesus new of his fate and that was his destiny. Without the sacrifice, Christianity just wouldn't be the same. My wife said, "I will leave you, if I don't go to church with me." I was like, "what would Jesus say?" That's not the proper attitude of a Christian!
In conclusion...
<center>
"http://fileserver1.jpghosting.com/images/7_1d745d9595e2c01c069eb1968786e0aa.jpg I have to go to church"</center>
Wow, BTC, that's pretty harsh man. So, she's forcing you to share in her delusion? Here's a banner for ya'll:
http://webpages.charter.net/misterboyd/images/forums/jesusanswer.JPG
Juggers
07-21-06, 10:46 PM
Juggers, why would I give an invisable man credit for something? To be fair though, if you give him credit for answered prayers (Btw, what is the purpose of prayer, what can we possibly tell an all knowing entity that it doesn't already know?) also credit him for the bad happenings. When something bad happens, I hear Christians blame it on man's free will. Well, that doesn't get this "God" fellow off the hook at all. A loving god would not allow free will if it is the cause of human evil. If he did indeed create everything, he created the conditions necessary for the said event to take place, hence he is either directly or indirectly responsible for everything that goes down.
Well, I don't think the purpose of prayer is to tell God anything exactly as you are implying...but to ask God for things that you need of Him ect....You are saying that God could be directly or indirectly responsible for everything that goes down (including evil things), and that its not mans free will. I remind you that Satan is actually a factor in mankind's lives too, and the forces of evil. Man gives credit to many things he cant understand or see, so giving an invisible being credit for something isn't too far fetched in this day and age.
Well, I don't think the purpose of prayer is to tell God anything exactly as you are implying...but to ask God for things that you need of Him ect....
If it's to ask him for things, that's kinda implying he's a giant, invisable Santa. If he even answers 1, he's sadistic then. Because millions of people with cancer are praying at this minute for his help, and why would he blow them all off and only answer 1? If he has the power to help 1, help them all. You cannot have it both ways.
You are saying that God could be directly or indirectly responsible for everything that goes down (including evil things), and that its not mans free will. I remind you that Satan is actually a factor in mankind's lives too, and the forces of evil.
Well, my friend, your invisable sky cadet created Satan (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045:7;&version=31;). And if he's all knowing, he created Satan with the full knowledge that he would turn and reak havoc on his creation. Hardly loving. Ohh, and according to your book, Satan is only responsible for 1 death by dropping a house on Job's kid, whereas God makes Hitler look like Mr. Rodgers.
Man gives credit to many things he cant understand or see, so giving an invisible being credit for something isn't too far fetched in this day and age.
Umm, name 1 thing man gives credit to that he doesn't understand nor see. I am wracking my brain tryin to think of 1 instance, anyway an invisable sky monkey who sprang out of nothingness doesn't fit into the equation.
Pandora
07-22-06, 12:17 AM
Umm, name 1 thing man gives credit to that he doesn't understand nor see. I am wracking my brain tryin to think of 1 instance, anyway an invisable sky monkey who sprang out of nothingness doesn't fit into the equation.
Life God gave us Life.
And also Satan is an angel cast out of heaven.
More Meat
07-22-06, 12:51 AM
Life God gave us Life.
And also Satan is an angel cast out of heaven.
Life happened naturally my friend, there was no mystical entity that zapped humans down on the planet. There aint no heaven; there aint no hell; their aint no God- deal with it.
Sorry I dont mean to be mean, but this stuff really fires me up- I cant believe that people really still believe in all this mysticism in this day and age. Ive had many an argument with people about religion and have argued the best of them into the ground simply because religion and believing in religion just doesnt make sense. Your believing in something that isnt there- have fun with that.
Pandora
07-22-06, 01:18 AM
Life happened naturally my friend, there was no mystical entity that zapped humans down on the planet. There aint no heaven; there aint no hell; their aint no God- deal with it.
Sorry I dont mean to be mean, but this stuff really fires me up- I cant believe that people really still believe in all this mysticism in this day and age. Ive had many an argument with people about religion and have argued the best of them into the ground simply because religion and believing in religion just doesnt make sense. Your believing in something that isnt there- have fun with that.
Haha lol so you say but you dont know this nobody knows this.
thats the whole point nobody knows.
Juggers
07-22-06, 01:56 AM
Haha lol so you say but you dont know this nobody knows this.
thats the whole point nobody knows.
Well, we can be sure we die someday, then you will know the truth. Until then faith is the onlything to grasp. As far as I am concerned, I have the right to beleive in what I want, as well as anyone here.
Kal-el, Satans turning against God, even if God did know, has nothing to do with God's love. Free will is free will. God loves people even if they turn against him.
Pandora
07-22-06, 03:06 AM
Well, we can be sure we die someday, then you will know the truth. Until then faith is the onlything to grasp. As far as I am concerned, I have the right to beleive in what I want, as well as anyone here.
Kal-el, Satans turning against God, even if God did know, has nothing to do with God's love. Free will is free will. God loves people even if they turn against him.
Does dieing scare you. I think i am afraid to die in case i don't come back or don't end up somewhere.
As the saying goes
You only live once make the most of it.
Girthius
07-22-06, 05:09 AM
When will people learn that prayer is not enough!It's like you want god, great spirit, etc., to meet you 90% of the way!It doesnt matter what you believe in, as all paths lead to the same place.......surprise!The key to all this lies within the subconcioius mind!Until people face up to this, and start working with this part of the brain, they will never get their prayers answered,become enlightened,astral travel or many other extraordinary things, that only some people get, through tapping into this part of the brain!!
As for the devil........when the christians gave him this name, they more or less created evils existance!By acknowlegdeing evil you give it power!As a pagan, we don't believe in such things as a "devil", so therefore, we do not feed it energy!
I'm affraid that the world is very evil, but it can be changed if people work on the subconcious!!You don't see 1000's of Taoist monks killing people for no reason............wonder why??
Well, we can be sure we die someday, then you will know the truth. Until then faith is the onlything to grasp. As far as I am concerned, I have the right to beleive in what I want, as well as anyone here.
Of course you do, just realize that your belief is not grounded in reality at all.
Kal-el, Satans turning against God;
even if God did know, has nothing to do with God's love.
Dude if God is omniscient, that means that at the time when he created Satan, he knew what would come of it. In other words, he knew forehand that Satan would become evil and try to battle for the souls of mankind. So, if this is true, God created evil; he's venomous and sadistic. So, all this trouble sure Satan is directly responsible, but you must ask yourself, who created Satan. I think if Satan would be real, he sounds like he'd be one helluv a guy, not some stiff douchebag with all these emotional insecurities like this "God" fellow.:)
Free will is free will. God loves people even if they turn against him.
Even though free will is incompatible with the Christian God's omnimax attributes, I'll overlook that for now. But I guess God shows his love like so:
Deut 6:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%206:15&version=31)
Num 14:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2014:18&version=31)
And this shows the height of his trivial, short fuse. It seems God has a hissy fit and orders someone stoned that is picking up a stick. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2015:32-36&version=31)
And don't piss him off, he's one rapacious, trivial diety:
1 Sam. 2:31-34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%202:31-34&version=31)
Here, (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2013:14-15;&version=31;) God has yet another titty attack, gets mad at a defensless wall, destroys it, and kills everyone that worked on it.
Here, (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2022:30-31&version=31) this loving fellow couldn't find anyone to stand up to him, so what does he do? Why he kills everyone of course.
So, you might want to retract what you said about God loving people if they turn against him.
Life God gave us Life.
And also Satan is an angel cast out of heaven.
There's about 3 million Muslims that disagree with you here. So tell me, why are you right? There were hundreds of religions before and after Christianity, why is it the right one? Before you make anymore positive assertions, I'd probably begin by proving God's existence. Prove it by not using the bible. Because I can use a DC comic to prove Superman exists. And you bring up Satan, how come God didn't get rid of him yet? I think he's impotent, hardly omnipotent. If hell even has 1 occupant it is a testament to Satan winning the battle for mankinds souls. If only believer's of Jesus will enter the sky fortress, God's in bad shape. Christianity only represents 1/3 of the world's population. So, this loving God is sending 2/3 of his creation to burn in hell forever. Sounds fair.:)
prince Albert
07-22-06, 08:57 PM
Well, we can be sure we die someday, then you will know the truth.
Isn't that the real reason why humans have always believed in some sort of god because unlike other animals we are aware of our own mortality and it scares us.
More Meat
07-22-06, 08:58 PM
Sing it sister!
Isn't that the real reason why humans have always believed in some sort of god because unlike other animals we are aware of our own mortality and it scares us.
Yep. And to add to the attractiveness of Christianity, or almost any religion, to start gathering followers, they need a place of torment, something meant to scare the living shit out of people, and make them obedient, mindless, sheep. I figure without Satan, the Christian religion goes under. Because what's the point in being with God, if there's no punishment for not being with him?
Juggers
07-22-06, 10:08 PM
Is your argument against God's character, or the fact that he cannot exist? And why discuss the crucifixion if you don't believe in God? Is it another way to prove that he doesn't exist, and if so how can you prove he doesn't exist? We as a people have a right to believe in whatever we want. The Bible was written by men who were inspired by the spirit of God, a book of instruction on how we should live to please God. If you don't want to beleive in God or the bible, what do you plan on achieving by defying it all? Why not just live your life day by day, doing what you feel is right in your own eyes until you die? You seem to be picking out parts of the bible that show Gods wrath, and yes, he does have wrath. And God does love people even if they turn away from him, if he didn't he wouldn't have sent Jesus to be crucified for us, your taking things from the old testament when the people were in a different covenant with God. Jesus changed things. Its easy to find verses in the bible that show God destroying a city, and saying "well, look, hes evil look what he did". You don't understand God is just and will punish the wicked. Man punishes man for things that he has done wrong, does that make us evil? Stop looking at one side of the pancake my friend.rofl
Pandora
07-22-06, 10:30 PM
There's about 3 million Muslims that disagree with you here. So tell me, why are you right? There were hundreds of religions before and after Christianity, why is it the right one? Before you make anymore positive assertions, I'd probably begin by proving God's existence. Prove it by not using the bible. Because I can use a DC comic to prove Superman exists. And you bring up Satan, how come God didn't get rid of him yet? I think he's impotent, hardly omnipotent. If hell even has 1 occupant it is a testament to Satan winning the battle for mankinds souls. If only believer's of Jesus will enter the sky fortress, God's in bad shape. Christianity only represents 1/3 of the world's population. So, this loving God is sending 2/3 of his creation to burn in hell forever. Sounds fair.:)
I can not prove there is a God like i said nobody knows.
How can you compare God to superman.
You know what if you think about how we where created it's just crazy and amazing where standing here flesh and bone bonded together:) emotions feeling happy sad crying amazing:)
Do you not feel God and Satan's presents enough to believe that there is something there a higher being.
you ever felt the presents of a ghost.
who's says there is a heaven and a hell there could be nothing and that scares me the most.
Pandora
07-22-06, 11:01 PM
How come satan is the one with the huge dick at least that is what i see when i have seen statue's.
Is your argument against God's character, or the fact that he cannot exist?
Well, I am familiar with the bible, and in it he is depicted as a lying, murderous, pimp. In it he kills more than Hitler, Stalin, and Napolean combined. I think Christians are worshipping the wrong fictional charcater here, it should be Eve or Judas, maybe even Satan. I'm tired of Christians painting a rosy picture of God, and those who are apprenticed on scripture soak it all up. If the God of the bible is attributed the omnimax attributes, he cannot exist.
And why discuss the crucifixion if you don't believe in God?
In order to show how frivolous, ridiculous the notion of a savage, barbaric, crucifixian is.
Is it another way to prove that he doesn't exist, and if so how can you prove he doesn't exist?
I cannot, but the burden of proof is on the Christians- they are making the positive assertion here. They are making a direct claim about reality; it affects everyone. If they said this "I believe God exists" that's fine, their opinions aren't up for debate. For instance, if I was taken aboard a UFO, would you just believe me, or would you want proof? The same if I said I had Superman's powers. Of course you wouldn't just believe me without seeing me do anything that's unique to his powers. You would want to see me fly or lift a house or something. Why is it any different when an athiest asks for proof of your God? And now that we're on the subject, the disciples needed eye-witness proof of the carpenter's ressurection, Paul needed an encounter with Jesus, Thomas needed to touch him, but skeptisicm was fine then, but since it's been a sure-fire ticket to hell.
We as a people have a right to believe in whatever we want.
De acuerdo. I'm not arguing that. You're right.
The Bible was written by men who were inspired by the spirit of God, a book of instruction on how we should live to please God.
The bible was written for uneducated people, and it was written by man, not a God. Whether you say it was inspired by God is irrelevant. I could say I was inspired by God to write a book about how Superman exists, and be right in saying that, for "I was inspired by God." Why should we live to please him? Does he have an ego problem?
If you don't want to beleive in God or the bible, what do you plan on achieving by defying it all? Why not just live your life day by day, doing what you feel is right in your own eyes until you die?
Well, like it or not it affects my life even if I have nothing to do with God. Our currency has his name, our President makes desicions based upon conversations he thinks he has with him; I think someone who believes in mystical bullshit is severley underequipped to dictate morality to us.
You seem to be picking out parts of the bible that show Gods wrath, and yes, he does have wrath.
You don't have to tell me, he condones slavery, actually so does Jesus, and God orders rapes and killings, he's nothing but a mafia-headman or clan wizard.
And God does love people even if they turn away from him,
Ahh, so tiring. Chapter, verse? Scripture based, or your opinion?
if he didn't he wouldn't have sent Jesus to be crucified for us,
For us? What exactly did the nailing of a carpenter to a log of wood solvent? Sin? Ha, there is more than enough so called sin in the world? And if Jesus was omniscient it wasn't much of a sacrifice, he had to know his dad would jumpstart him with a divine defibulator.:) And if God created everything, he introduced sin into the world, so in all reality, he was forced to kill his son or himself to save his creation from a mistake he's responsible for. Not a rocket scientist is he?
your taking things from the old testament when the people were in a different covenant with God.
Are there 2 different God's here?
Jesus changed things.
True to a point, but remember, he came to uphold the Mosaic law, not abolish it.
Its easy to find verses in the bible that show God destroying a city, and saying "well, look, hes evil look what he did". You don't understand God is just and will punish the wicked. Man punishes man for things that he has done wrong, does that make us evil? Stop looking at one side of the pancake my friend.rofl
Ok, I'll tell ya what, how's about you show me where the bible represents reality. And what logic tells you that your God loves anything at all? How do you even know it has such an emotion? Do you have any proof that your diety sees anything as evil or good or care about humans at all?
I can not prove there is a God like i said nobody knows.
Right, then some should stop acting like his official spokespeople.
How can you compare God to superman.
Well, let's see
Weakness- Superman (kryptonite) God (Iron chariots (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%201:19&version=31))
Villan- Lex Luthor, Satan
Book- DC Comics, Bible
Star- Clark Kent, Jehovah, I AM
Do you not feel God and Satan's presents enough to believe that there is something there a higher being.
Nope, and I think if someone claimed that God or Satan touched them they would probably be institionilized.
you ever felt the presents of a ghost.
Nope
who's says there is a heaven and a hell there could be nothing and that scares me the most.
Why would that scare you? I would think if the bible God is real, humanity is in a shitload of trouble.
Edit: Let me get this straight- you buy into a 2,000 year old story about a man nailed to a log of wood, but reject pink unicorns? Bigfoot?
How come satan is the one with the huge dick at least that is what i see when i have seen statue's.
Really??? It doesn't suprise me, he probably ass rapes God as in the book of Job they are bussom buddies.:)
Pandora
07-23-06, 01:39 AM
Right, then some should stop acting like his official spokespeople.
lol
Well, let's see
Weakness- Superman (kryptonite) God (Iron chariots (�http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%201:19&version=31�))
Villan- Lex Luthor, Satan
Book- DC Comics, Bible
Star- Clark Kent, Jehovah, I AM
Yeah but you know superman is fiction you don't know weather God is real or not you can believe that he is real or not but you do not know:)
Why would that scare you? I would think if the bible God is real, humanity is in a shitload of trouble.
I don't know but when i think of life and how everything has come about i don't want to leave it like the beauty of a women or the feeling of rain or a thunder storm.
Edit: Let me get this straight- you buy into a 2,000 year old story about a man nailed to a log of wood, but reject pink unicorns? Bigfoot?
You ever watch The Passion of The Christ - A Mel Gibson Film that made me cry why would i cry if it was not true but at the end of the day i do not know there is only faith my son.
Pandora
07-23-06, 01:43 AM
Really??? It doesn't suprise me, he probably ass rapes God as in the book of Job they are bussom buddies.:)
:) I still notice this tho i never seen a picture of God with a massive penis maybe its just because of the artist's tho.
penguinsfan
07-23-06, 03:41 AM
I think the Bible is the most murderous, gruesome book that man has ever concocted.
It might have the greatest number of accounts of evil deeds of man and some harsh violence in the Old Testament, but at least the New Testament has left a different set of principles to live by. It is certainly NOT the book that inspires the most violence and murder among the more fanatical followers.
For example, BTC Killer put that image that Christians would consider blasphemous when complaining about his wife making him go to church. I would invite him to post that image on a Christian forum and list his real name and home address. Then I would invite him to go to an Islamic forum and post an image of Mohammed buttfucking Mohammed and list his real name and home address. Who will he fear?
l
Yeah but you know superman is fiction you don't know weather God is real or not you can believe that he is real or not but you do not know:)
You never know, 2,000 years from now if people find copies of DC or Marvel comics they won't know who Stan Lee or Jeph Loeb are? It never states in the comics that Supes or Spidey are fictional. It's just accecpted nowadays.
I don't know but when i think of life and how everything has come about i don't want to leave it like the beauty of a women or the feeling of rain or a thunder storm.
Where does your sky monkey come into play here?
You ever watch The Passion of The Christ - A Mel Gibson Film that made me cry why would i cry if it was not true but at the end of the day i do not know there is only faith my son.
Well I remember back in the day when Michael Jackson came out with the video "Thriller" remember at the end when he had those cat eyes. Well, since I was real young I had terrible nightmares over it, I probably cried a few times. By your logic that's real too. As for faith (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith). I agree, it is faith. The absence of facts. Belief that does not rest on proof or evidence. Faith lives and thrives off of ignorance, so in order to maintain that faith, one must maintain the said ignorance. The truly sad part of the whole situation is that all the people who are duped by the rabid lies of Christianity have children, and they brainwash them into blindly accepting the very same lies and absurdities.
It might have the greatest number of accounts of evil deeds of man and some harsh violence in the Old Testament, but at least the New Testament has left a different set of principles to live by. It is certainly NOT the book that inspires the most violence and murder among the more fanatical followers.
Hey penguinsfan, ¿Què te pasa amigo? Actually, almost every single religious text inspires violence by fanatics. For example, I'm pretty sure in the Koran, Allah tells his followers to kill the "infidel" or non-believer. So, these Muslim extremists that we see can use the excuse that their God wants them to carry out a final solution, so to speak. The bible God instructs his followers to kill those who do any type of work on the sabbath. If these religious texts were cencored, I'm willing to bet a 9/11 would have never happened. Actually, while the NT might be more child-friendly, it's lies are rampant. It's packed full of lies and hyperbole. Let me give you an example:
Matthew 21:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2021:21&version=31)
John 14:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:12-14&version=31)
Matthew 7:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%207:7&version=31)
Mark 11:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2011:24&version=31)
Let there be no confusion here. There is no indication from the carpenter that evil people will be ignored when asking for help, he also sets no boundaries on what you may pray for. If this is true, what would the Christian God do if 2 highly religious people prayed that the exact same mountain would move in oppositte directions? I figure there are a couple scenarios: 1)Jesus is an imposter, and he is blatantly being less than truthful, 2)Jesus and God are figmants of our imagination, and simply characters in a book, 3)Jesus was telling the truth, it's either God can't do anything, or he refuses to. Numero dos sounds more logical to me, it explains why millions of people who lost limbs in wars, and people who are afflicted with various diseases pray, and their prayers go unanswered.
For example, BTC Killer put that image that Christians would consider blasphemous when complaining about his wife making him go to church. I would invite him to post that image on a Christian forum and list his real name and home address.
Well that's pretty stupid to do, don't you think. Thats kinda like Alphaplhie coming on here to say pe is a waste of time, coming on a pe forum and spewing that. You get the picture.
Then I would invite him to go to an Islamic forum and post an image of Mohammed buttfucking Mohammed and list his real name and home address. Who will he fear?
Again, unless BTC has a death wish, I wouldn't suggest he do this. What do you mean by who will he fear?
Pandora
07-23-06, 11:14 PM
You never know, 2,000 years from now if people find copies of DC or Marvel comics they won't know who Stan Lee or Jeph Loeb are? It never states in the comics that Supes or Spidey are fictional. It's just accecpted nowadays.
Nar i cant see that happening we have the Internet now technology can only go forward.
Where does your sky monkey come into play here?
My point is things just don't happen to me it feel as tho they have to be created so there has to be a creator.
Well I remember back in the day when Michael Jackson came out with the video "Thriller" remember at the end when he had those cat eyes. Well, since I was real young I had terrible nightmares over it, I probably cried a few times. By your logic that's real too. As for faith (�http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith�). I agree, it is faith. The absence of facts. Belief that does not rest on proof or evidence. Faith lives and thrives off of ignorance, so in order to maintain that faith, one must maintain the said ignorance. The truly sad part of the whole situation is that all the people who are duped by the rabid lies of Christianity have children, and they brainwash them into blindly accepting the very same lies and absurdities.
If its bullshit why has it not been forgotten allready why is there so many fellows.
penguinsfan
07-24-06, 01:09 AM
Hey penguinsfan, ¿Què te pasa amigo? Actually, almost every single religious text inspires violence by fanatics. For example, I'm pretty sure in the Koran, Allah tells his followers to kill the "infidel" or non-believer. So, these Muslim extremists that we see can use the excuse that their God wants them to carry out a final solution, so to speak. The bible God instructs his followers to kill those who do any type of work on the sabbath. If these religious texts were cencored, I'm willing to bet a 9/11 would have never happened. Actually, while the NT might be more child-friendly, it's lies are rampant. It's packed full of lies and hyperbole. Let me give you an example:
Religious texts as followed by Jew, Christians, and perhaps others have adapted or evolved to the point where there is no open-ended command to commit violence that is believed to this day. For example, many commandments in the Leviticus law are done away with by the teachings in the New Testament. Obviously, not all muslims hold those commands to be valid in this modern day, but we cannot ignore its been problematic within that religion. It is interesting that Judaism is obviously based on the Old Testament alone yet does not hold onto the literal commands of the Leviticus law to this day.
It is also interesting to debate if 9/11 would have happened without such extreme theological references. I would suspect it might not have happened, because the religious element within Islamic terror groups is very real, but mankind will also find some kind of justification for his evil deeds and someone else to scapegoat. Would our world still have violent atrocities without religion? You bet your ass it would!
Again, unless BTC has a death wish, I wouldn't suggest he do this. What do you mean by who will he fear?
I'm simply pointing out that the greatest problems among violence exists within the muslim world and there is where we really should be working on. The point is that, as crazy as some of the ideas that fundamentalist Christians have (I am not attending any church at this point, but find myself leaning towards Orthodoxy from a theological standpoint), they're relatively easy to live with. Yes, there are isolated instances of the abortion doctor getting gunned down, but that is pretty isolated. It's occurred fewer times than the number of explosions in Baghdad on its best day. I was just making that point. It really had little to do with the philosophical questions you posed.
penguinsfan
07-24-06, 01:11 AM
Well I remember back in the day when Michael Jackson came out with the video "Thriller" remember at the end when he had those cat eyes. Well, since I was real young I had terrible nightmares over it, I probably cried a few times.
That was a freaky video for its time. :)
Nar i cant see that happening we have the Internet now technology can only go forward.
You seem to not get my point here, you don't know how people thought of the stories that have become religion when they were first told. It may very well have been considered crazy to believe that such stories were real.
Further, you are also hypothesizing that people in 2,000 years will know that Jeoph Loeb or Stan Lee were actual people. They might think that they were mythological characters, some scribe whose job it was to write down the adventures of Superman in the same way that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are acknowledged the writers of the stories of Jesus.
To add to this, comics are not all we have of Superman, or Spiderman. We have movies, novels, discussion groups, songs, and other shit. We have no idea what will survive into the future and what will not, (i.e. the internet) so we can't even guess how future generations would interpret the technology, media we use now. Time has a way of gradually evolving what people think of a subject or an event so that what we know to be true often gets mixed up with what we don't know to be false. That's why people still believe we found WMDs in Iraq, and Marilyn Manson had a lung removed so he could suck himself off.
While it would seem to us in this time and place that belief in Superman is absurd, separated by time, that belief is absolutely possible. The same is true of Christianity, and that's where I was getting at.
My point is things just don't happen to me it feel as tho they have to be created so there has to be a creator.
O, the infamous "God of the Gaps". Science cannot explain it, so right away God did it. Well, the Big Bang is not a fact, but it sheds more light on the subject than any religious theory outthere. Religion just states that God did it, at least science has the smarts to have a map and ask questions. I have a question for you- if the single attribute of being created depends on a maker, who made God?
If its bullshit why has it not been forgotten allready why is there so many fellows.
You can't be serious, can you? This is a classic arguement from popularity. You're basically saying that since so many people believe in God, they must be right? Well, how many people used to believe the earth was flat before technology was discovered to make it known? Whether it's a God or a flat earth, all those beliefs come from a primitive mindset or understanding of nature based on distorted data.
Pandora
07-24-06, 01:58 PM
You seem to not get my point here, you don't know how people thought of the stories that have become religion when they were first told. It may very well have been considered crazy to believe that such stories were real.
Further, you are also hypothesizing that people in 2,000 years will know that Jeoph Loeb or Stan Lee were actual people. They might think that they were mythological characters, some scribe whose job it was to write down the adventures of Superman in the same way that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are acknowledged the writers of the stories of Jesus.
To add to this, comics are not all we have of Superman, or Spiderman. We have movies, novels, discussion groups, songs, and other shit. We have no idea what will survive into the future and what will not, (i.e. the internet) so we can't even guess how future generations would interpret the technology, media we use now. Time has a way of gradually evolving what people think of a subject or an event so that what we know to be true often gets mixed up with what we don't know to be false. That's why people still believe we found WMDs in Iraq, and Marilyn Manson had a lung removed so he could suck himself off.
While it would seem to us in this time and place that belief in Superman is absurd, separated by time, that belief is absolutely possible. The same is true of Christianity, and that's where I was getting at.
Technology will only go forward come on were gonna go back to being a cave man yeah right lol.
Its not the same what you are saying will never happen there will never be a superman but God may walk on earth again.
O, the infamous "God of the Gaps". Science cannot explain it, so right away God did it. Well, the Big Bang is not a fact, but it sheds more light on the subject than any religious theory outthere. Religion just states that God did it, at least science has the smarts to have a map and ask questions. I have a question for you- if the single attribute of being created depends on a maker, who made God?
God made himself or obviously his God lol but that is a good one.
You can't be serious, can you? This is a classic arguement from popularity. You're basically saying that since so many people believe in God, they must be right? Well, how many people used to believe the earth was flat before technology was discovered to make it known? Whether it's a God or a flat earth, all those beliefs come from a primitive mindset or understanding of nature based on distorted data.
OK so why have they not discovered weather god exists yet then, they have sure had enough time.
prince Albert
07-24-06, 02:40 PM
The truly sad part of the whole situation is that all the people who are duped by the rabid lies of Christianity have children, and they brainwash them into blindly accepting the very same lies and absurdities.
That is very true,if you ask people who believe in god the question "Why do you believe in god" they often carn't give you an answer.
Ive been an atheist since about 11 or 12,my wife on the other hand is a believer but not in the normal church goer sense.
I don't have a problem with those who choose to believe,if it makes them happy then why not.
We agreed to raise our kids without pushing religion onto them,they can learn about it themselves when they are old enough to grasp the idea and if they want to believe then fine.
Just recently my oldest daughter who is 7 came home from school and started talking about adam and eve,jesus and a fair bit of other stuff.
The scarey thing is that when i asked her if she believed what she had been told she said yes the teacher told me it must be true.
I think this is one of the reasons that alot of adults are prepared to blindly believe in god because from a young age they are basicaly brainwashed into accepting religion as fact.
That is very true,if you ask people who believe in god the question "Why do you believe in god" they often carn't give you an answer.
Ive been an atheist since about 11 or 12,my wife on the other hand is a believer but not in the normal church goer sense.
I don't have a problem with those who choose to believe,if it makes them happy then why not.
We agreed to raise our kids without pushing religion onto them,they can learn about it themselves when they are old enough to grasp the idea and if they want to believe then fine.
Just recently my oldest daughter who is 7 came home from school and started talking about adam and eve,jesus and a fair bit of other stuff.
The scarey thing is that when i asked her if she believed what she had been told she said yes the teacher told me it must be true.
I think this is one of the reasons that alot of adults are prepared to blindly believe in god because from a young age they are basicaly brainwashed into accepting religion as fact.
So true. I personally have only been an atheist for a few years, outspoken anyway. For a couple years I was basically sitting on the sidelines, quietly, while theists and atheists battled it out. Atheism is the clear and rational alternative to confusion, fear, and superstition that's offered by a religion. Atheism encourages freedom of thought and inquiry, while religion requires unquestioning obedience and blind faith. My main problem with religion stems from the lack of evidence behind them. Every single religion claims they are right, and to me, that is enough proof that they are wrong.
Technology will only go forward come on were gonna go back to being a cave man yeah right lol.
Did you even read what I wrote? I said time has a way of evolving. I don't think the internet will be around in 2,000 years, I'm quite sure they'll be something 100x better. For the sake of arguement, let's say a disaster strikes and wipes most of humanity out. Then 100s of years later, humanity begins again. One day people are searching, and they find a Bible. Then they find a DC comic. Who's to say what they are gonna think. Who's to know if they find a Tom Clancy book, how will they know it's fiction?
Its not the same what you are saying will never happen there will never be a superman but God may walk on earth again.
Says who? Please define this God. God spoke frequently throughout the OT, why haven't we heard him since? Laryngitis? Dude, if you can't prove it it's baseless dogma, text from a contradictory book of legends proves nothing. Please admit that's this "God" idea is your opinion and not truth. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
God made himself or obviously his God lol but that is a good one.
His God? So, the Christian God didn't create evything? I was under the opinion that it is believed that he literally sprang out of nothingness to create the world in 6 days, and needed to rest on the 7th? God made himself, what was he bored? A perfect entity shows no emotions. Before we argue on and on, you must prove this:
1. Define God
2. Prove such an entity exists
3.Prove that he had a son
4. Prove that he can raise the dead
After you can prove.. Scratch that. Just define your God, then we'll talk.
OK so why have they not discovered weather god exists yet then, they have sure had enough time.
Hey, hey science takes time. I'm sure you don't tell a surgeon how to operate? Well they have not found a white-bearded sky despot anywhere. The more science advances, the less space your God occupies. if there was a God, and he was Loving, like you claim, why don't he make himself known? I have a nice, comfortable chair in my room, that's waiting for God to park his fat ass on.:)
Pandora
07-25-06, 02:55 AM
Did you even read what I wrote? I said time has a way of evolving. I don't think the internet will be around in 2,000 years, I'm quite sure they'll be something 100x better. For the sake of arguement, let's say a disaster strikes and wipes most of humanity out. Then 100s of years later, humanity begins again. One day people are searching, and they find a Bible. Then they find a DC comic. Who's to say what they are gonna think. Who's to know if they find a Tom Clancy book, how will they know it's fiction?
Says who? Please define this God. God spoke frequently throughout the OT, why haven't we heard him since? Laryngitis? Dude, if you can't prove it it's baseless dogma, text from a contradictory book of legends proves nothing. Please admit that's this "God" idea is your opinion and not truth. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
His God? So, the Christian God didn't create evything? I was under the opinion that it is believed that he literally sprang out of nothingness to create the world in 6 days, and needed to rest on the 7th? God made himself, what was he bored? A perfect entity shows no emotions. Before we argue on and on, you must prove this:
1. Define God
2. Prove such an entity exists
3.Prove that he had a son
4. Prove that he can raise the dead
After you can prove.. Scratch that. Just define your God, then we'll talk.
Hey, hey science takes time. I'm sure you don't tell a surgeon how to operate? Well they have not found a white-bearded sky despot anywhere. The more science advances, the less space your God occupies. if there was a God, and he was Loving, like you claim, why don't he make himself known? I have a nice, comfortable chair in my room, that's waiting for God to park his fat ass on.:)
Why don't you prove that he does not exist:)
Why don't you prove that he does not exist:)
C'mon Pandora, you know better than that man. I don't have to. Theists are making the positive claim here, hence they have the obligation to prove it; the burden of proof is on them. Like I said before, if I said I was abducted by aliens, taken aboard a UFO, would you believe me? Probably not, thus I would be rquired to produce evidence in order to be taken seriously. The same is true of your invisable man. Atheism does not claim that God doesn't exist; just that they lack a belief in any Gods. Atheism is the default position. Every child was an atheist at birth. It isn't until they are literally brainwashed a God belief that they accept it.
Pandora
07-25-06, 04:13 PM
C'mon Pandora, you know better than that man. I don't have to. Theists are making the positive claim here, hence they have the obligation to prove it; the burden of proof is on them. Like I said before, if I said I was abducted by aliens, taken aboard a UFO, would you believe me? Probably not, thus I would be rquired to produce evidence in order to be taken seriously. The same is true of your invisable man. Atheism does not claim that God doesn't exist; just that they lack a belief in any Gods. Atheism is the default position. Every child was an atheist at birth. It isn't until they are literally brainwashed a God belief that they accept it.
The proof is the Bible and apparently aliens do exist we are not alone:D
The proof is the Bible and apparently aliens do exist we are not alone:D
Throughout the pages of the bible, you're skydaddy is shown to be a jealous, trivial, serial killer diety. He has killed more than the worst depsots did all time, he had a 2,000 page book written about himself so he can brag about himself. He advocates hatred, intolerance, and violence. God is so "loving" and "forgiving" that he punishes people eternally for crimes committed in a finite lifetime. The bible is simply an article of faith, and faith happens when one doesn't accept reality at face value. Not to mention, the bible contradicts itself at every corner. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible correct, any more than you can use a DC comic to prove that kids can fly. You seem to be failing to acknowledge a simple idea here. The bible is the sole source of the claim that God exists, hence it cannot be used as evidence to support itself.
Pandora
07-25-06, 04:45 PM
Throughout the pages of the bible, you're skydaddy is shown to be a jealous, trivial, serial killer diety. He has killed more than the worst depsots did all time, he had a 2,000 page book written about himself so he can brag about himself. He advocates hatred, intolerance, and violence. God is so "loving" and "forgiving" that he punishes people eternally for crimes committed in a finite lifetime. The bible is simply an article of faith, and faith happens when one doesn't accept reality at face value. Not to mention, the bible contradicts itself at every corner. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible correct, any more than you can use a DC comic to prove that kids can fly. You seem to be failing to acknowledge a simple idea here. The bible is the sole source of the claim that God exists, hence it cannot be used as evidence to support itself.
lol
You guys should check out this documentary (http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6690702357039658996&q=root+of+all+evil+duration%3Along). Dawkins makes alot of good points.
prince Albert
07-26-06, 12:08 AM
For those that believe in god,do you believe in the theory of evolution?
For those that believe in god,do you believe in the theory of evolution?
I don't have a God belief, but I'd like to put my 2 cents in if you don't mind. I have met quite a few Christians who are scientific; but most of them are diests. They think a god created everything, then had nothing to do with it. I can almost buy that; cause these people don't claim anything about their diety. So I'm an agnostic when it comes to diests. I would venture to say that anyone who takes the bible literally cannot subscribe to the evolutionary theory. For example, in Genesis the theory of evolution describes death as occuring naturally, not caused by punishment by God. Talking serpents, trees that can give eternal life, humans capapble of living 930 years, that's totally asinine. Not to mention a catastrophic flood that could cover the whole earth would upset the earth's orbit, and would not dissapear in the time given. Let's go on to Noah's ark, it's totally ridiculous that every species of animal was gathered there, what about the dinousaurs? Bringing each animal from all corners of the earth would take alot of time, and God gave Noah a week's (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%207:4&version=31) notice before he committed wholesale genocide.
Kal-el, you're coming off quite angry in this thread, degrading religious people and all. I know I've done it before, but I've found points get across much easier if you're calm about them. That you are attacking may make some think that you can't defend your own beliefs well, thus you try destroy other people's.
Dawkin's is quite hostile in that documentary, his comparing the preacher to the nazis. One I enjoyed was Jonathan Miller's 'Brief History of Disbelief'. Great interviews, there is also a follow-up with full interviews.
All you need is some presuppositionalist to come in here and ask a few questions, your anger would make you jump the gun, dig yourself a hole and you'd be in a swamp of semantics and accounting for everything in no time.
Furthermore, many people identify themselfves by their religion, or it is what helps them get through the day. Attacking their religion is about the same as an assault on their character.
Just saying be careful, relax and try to move past religion. You're an atheist, so move on, get past it and live your life.
As to the crucifixion, some of the mythicist case seems to have merit. Though I think the Jesus written of in the bible was somewhat of a composite of different god-men, there was likely a real guy who was crucified. I think the story of turning over the tables in the temple is likely real and what got him in major trouble.
Kal-el, you're coming off quite angry in this thread, degrading religious people and all. I know I've done it before, but I've found points get across much easier if you're calm about them. That you are attacking may make some think that you can't defend your own beliefs well, thus you try destroy other people's.{
Hey kraft, long time, huh? I really don't mean to come off as mean, but like I said before, I just get on edge when people make all these claims, and all they have to support these wild claims is a book full of errors. You should know better than anyone, that athiesm has no belief. As far as I know, atheism is based on reason, not faith. I only reject the existence of God for exactly the same reason Christians reject Allah, Zeus, or Dynosis. I'd say you don't need a "belief" to reject these. I'd also say it's fairly reasonable to assume, in the overwhelming absence of any imperical evidence for the Christian God, that it just doesn't exist. No faith or belief required. But I suppose I'm preaching to the choir here, you probably already know all this.
Dawkin's is quite hostile in that documentary, his comparing the preacher to the nazis. One I enjoyed was Jonathan Miller's 'Brief History of Disbelief'. Great interviews, there is also a follow-up with full interviews.
Dawkins does get extreme at times, yes.
All you need is some presuppositionalist to come in here and ask a few questions, your anger would make you jump the gun, dig yourself a hole and you'd be in a swamp of semantics and accounting for everything in no time.
Well, in all honesty in 2 1/2 years, that has never happened. But you could be right about that.
Furthermore, many people identify themselfves by their religion, or it is what helps them get through the day. Attacking their religion is about the same as an assault on their character.
Just saying be careful, relax and try to move past religion. You're an atheist, so move on, get past it and live your life.
Actually, I have many friends that identify themselves as Christians. Most Christians I know are logically sound, intelligent people, except when it comes to the bible. I might have some built up anger towards Christians, as most Christians have a certain "aura" around them, they think they are better than everyone because they believe an invisable man has their backs. I know, I was a Christian for 14 years.
As to the crucifixion, some of the mythicist case seems to have merit. Though I think the Jesus written of in the bible was somewhat of a composite of different god-men, there was likely a real guy who was crucified. I think the story of turning over the tables in the temple is likely real and what got him in major trouble.
I'm pretty sure that the Jesus written of in the bible never existed. It's all thefts from other religions, and there's too many similarites between him and the Egyptian God Mithra. But, if I'm wrong and he did exist, it still does not proove his divinity.
Has been a while, saw some of the world and am working in Chile at the moment.
But I suppose I'm preaching to the choir here, you probably already know all this.
Pretty much. I have heard an argument about atheism actually being a belief in regards to the existance of god(s), having no beliefs about the issue would mean you have no position in regards to it. This still wouldn't mean the atheist has the positive case to prove a negative, the burden would still be on the person making the existential claim about god(s). That seems like so much pajas mentales though...
Like the classic Stephen Roberts quote, "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
Consider yourself lucky you've never run into a presuppositionalist. Debating them is like bashing your head against a wall. "oh, you want to use empiricism, please justify empiricisim. You want to use induction, answer Hume's 'problem of induction', you want to use logic, account for logic." link (http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/02/understanding-presuppositionalism.html) That's a basic outline of the position. It has become popular on many discussion boards and among Calvinists.
Actually, I have many friends that identify themselves as Christians. Most Christians I know are logically sound, intelligent people, except when it comes to the bible. I might have some built up anger towards Christians, as most Christians have a certain "aura" around them, they think they are better than everyone because they believe an invisable man has their backs. I know, I was a Christian for 14 years.
I was thinking more along the lines of people that have Christianity as a center of their lives, not simply those that self-identify as Christian. From many atheist I know, they too seem to think they are something special, because they were able to "escape" from religion. Wearing that as some kind of badge of honour.
With Jesus, yeah, I just think he was a man, and the biblical Jesus mashed him together with many other god-men, dying and rising saviours and so on.
Hey Kal-el. I just read through this thread. I admit I didn't read it word for word. I'm supposed to be getting ready for work and am just being lazy. First thing I have to say. You obviously have so much doubt and anger about all this. You say you come from a strong Christian background and obviously know more scripture than the average Joe, more than me I'll freely admit. I find this rather interesting since because of this attribute in you, by all rights you should see how little weight your doubts actually carry. You feel that if YOU don't understand things, if YOU don't agree, if it's not YOUR will, if it's not "logical", if it can't can't be proven RIGHT NOW TODAY then it must all be a load of crap.
In many respects I'm a baby Christian. I wasn't raised with a strong Christian background at all, I just basically have been drawn to God on my own since an early age. I fell off the path many a time, as have you. Reading through the majority of your posts in this thread I thought how similar you sounded as to a child who rises against his father or mother because the child in question does not understand why he or she is being disciplined or told to do something. Just about any adult on the planet can recall times during their own youth when they hated their parents and thought they were full of crap. Years down the road though with the passage of time and maturity they finally understand why their parents did what they did. The former child realizes how wrong he or she was this whole time, and that his or her parents had it right all along.
In my personal life I've had numerous occasions to see the the "proof" of God. I won't go into all that here because most non-believers would say I was just a nut or another "Jesus freak" (fyi to all readers:that's like calling a black man a nigger, not cool and not appreciated). I wouldn't be able to prove all my experiences to you either. That doesn't change the fact that I lived it and I've seen it all with my own eyes and felt it in my own heart.
For someone who has a strong familiarity with the Bible I'm surprised you haven't mentioned something. Remember in Revelations, something to the effect: "Woe unto he that adds to or takes away from these works". I picked up on that little morsel as a teen. To me I see that as God's "NO TRESPASSING" sign. Why does anyone usually put up a "NO TRESPASSING" sign? Usually because someone HAS trespassed before and it was not appreciated by the owner of the property. It's a known and documented fact that many works were left out of the Bible. It stands to reason that there are probably some things in there that are not of God too. I believe that's why he put up his "sign".
If we walk in faith and not by sight we can discover all this for ourselves. Kal-el, just because you don't understand or agree with something or everything in the Bible doesn't mean you are right. Even if we reach a ripe old age we are still just "children" and He is the Father. If we constantly throw our faith on our own will and not His we live only as men and men will always fail. When we submit to His will he protects us, often from ourselves. He knows our needs more than we ever will. His will goes beyond all understanding and logic. How can we as men, for even the shortest moments, think that our human minds and hearts can grasp the mind and will of God himself? Satan thought himself capable of this too... look what happened to him. ;)
I just read this..woo.
Hey Kal-el.
¡Oye! nobody
I find this rather interesting since because of this attribute in you, by all rights you should see how little weight your doubts actually carry.
Really? You're a fantastic judge of character, aren't you? Then why don't you try shedding some Xian light on some of my ideas. Let's start now. Paul needed an eye-witness encounter with Jesus to believe. The disciples faith were'nt grounded until the last supper, they didn't believe he ressurected, they needed to see it, hell even Thomas had to touch Jesus' wounds to believe. Why was doubt ok then, but nowadays if you doubt, you're singled out and called a heteric?
You feel that if YOU don't understand things, if YOU don't agree, if it's not YOUR will, if it's not "logical", if it can't can't be proven RIGHT NOW TODAY then it must all be a load of crap.
Thank you for the huge sweeping generalization about me.
Reading through the majority of your posts in this thread I thought how similar you sounded as to a child who rises against his father or mother because the child in question does not understand why he or she is being disciplined or told to do something. Just about any adult on the planet can recall times during their own youth when they hated their parents and thought they were full of crap. Years down the road though with the passage of time and maturity they finally understand why their parents did what they did. The former child realizes how wrong he or she was this whole time, and that his or her parents had it right all along.
Flawed analogy bud. Actual parents manifest themselves. The entity you call God has not proven he is anything more than a figment of people's imaginations.
In my personal life I've had numerous occasions to see the the "proof" of God.
Please enlighten me. And how many people were killed by the Tsunami in Asia? Katrina? Religious wars? The twin tower disaster, etc, etc. Where was your God during all this chaos?
I won't go into all that here because most non-believers would say I was just a nut or another "Jesus freak" (fyi to all readers:that's like calling a black man a nigger, not cool and not appreciated). I wouldn't be able to prove all my experiences to you either. That doesn't change the fact that I lived it and I've seen it all with my own eyes and felt it in my own heart.
That's fine if that's enough for you. If it proves a man in the clouds is hovering over you, protecting you while millions of kids with terminal illnesses pray, hey.
For someone who has a strong familiarity with the Bible I'm surprised you haven't mentioned something. Remember in Revelations, something to the effect: "Woe unto he that adds to or takes away from these works".
How about this:
2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation
I especially like how Xians randomly decide when a verse is literal or figurative.
Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
And this is the kicker:
Isiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever."
So if his word stands forever, that must mean that slavery is still fine and acceptable, after all, God said slavery is alright, so who's to say otherwise?
If we walk in faith and not by sight we can discover all this for ourselves.
Translation:
If we walk in faith and not by sight, logic, or reason, we can blindly believe things exactly as a child.
Kal-el, just because you don't understand or agree with something or everything in the Bible doesn't mean you are right.
I realize this, but who's to say Xians are right? The mere fact that I can find an obvious different meaning in certain verses should tell you something about your imaginary friend's omnipotence.
Even if we reach a ripe old age we are still just "children" and He is the Father. If we constantly throw our faith on our own will and not His we live only as men and men will always fail. When we submit to His will he protects us, often from ourselves. He knows our needs more than we ever will. His will goes beyond all understanding and logic. How can we as men, for even the shortest moments, think that our human minds and hearts can grasp the mind and will of God himself?
Ok, how the hell do you know all of this? Does the bible explain all of this? Or are you making this up? Is this just wishful thinking presented as fact here? The main problem here is your presuming to speak for God, how do you know it's intentions? And that little tidbit about his will going beyond us, well how do you know then that he wants worship? How are we to understand his book of laws? If nobody can understand him, why do you feel the need to act like his secretary? How can you possibly make sweeping posititve assertions about such an entity?
Satan thought himself capable of this too... look what happened to him. ;)
Let me ask you a few questions, be careful how you answer: Do you believe in Satan? Do you believe in Jonas being swallowed by a whale? Do you believe Adam was God's son? And on the subject, what happened to Satan? I can't see anything bad. if you say he's in hell, seperated from God, then you are detracting from his omnipresence, he is everywhere right?
I just read this..woo.
¡Oye! nobody
Really? You're a fantastic judge of character, aren't you? Then why don't you try shedding some Xian light on some of my ideas. Let's start now. Paul needed an eye-witness encounter with Jesus to believe. The disciples faith were'nt grounded until the last supper, they didn't believe he ressurected, they needed to see it, hell even Thomas had to touch Jesus' wounds to believe. Why was doubt ok then, but nowadays if you doubt, you're singled out and called a heteric?
At what point did I single you out and call you a heretic? Way too many fraudulent Christians out there give us a bad name. A true Christian knows that it is never his or her place alone to judge and punish another. You are being facetious and rather off the mark by calling me "a fantastic judge of character". I'm not judging your character or your summation as a person, I'm judging and commenting on your expressed written opinions herein, which you have invited others to do by starting this thread in the first place. Doubt wasn't okay back in the time of Christ and it isn't okay now. You and I are both human though, so it is our nature to be highly susceptible to this doubt.
Thank you for the huge sweeping generalization about me.
Where's this huge sweeping generalization you speak of on my part against you? The ENTIRETY of your posts in this thread go on and on about how God doesn't make sense, He's a hypocrite if He exists at all, and how he's just a figment of every body's imagination, including mine. None of it makes sense or is justifiable in YOUR eyes so therefore it's all a load of crap. So if you go on and on about all this and I simply point out as much... what gives?
Flawed analogy bud. Actual parents manifest themselves. The entity you call God has not proven he is anything more than a figment of people's imaginations.
There are many examples of God proving his existence. A huge one is the parting of the Red Sea. Science even backs this up, but since science is of man we can't figure out how this was done. My mother was an archaeologist by the way. Her faith was not strong until her last years but in her circles there were numerous occasions where her and her colleges had come across physical evidence that completely supported Biblical record.
Please enlighten me. And how many people were killed by the Tsunami in Asia? Katrina? Religious wars? The twin tower disaster, etc, etc. Where was your God during all this chaos?
Half of the events you mention here are acts carried out by MAN, not God. You are making the age old sin of blaming God for the acts of men. You know the Bible already so we both know I shouldn't have to tell you this. Time and time again God has told us this world is wicked and it will pass away. If we are of this world we will share it's fate. We have free will remember? Your train of thought here is the same as a felon who blames his nature on a troubled childhood or lack of opportunity compared to the rest of society. The blame game never works.
That's fine if that's enough for you. If it proves a man in the clouds is hovering over you, protecting you while millions of kids with terminal illnesses pray, hey.
Again refer to my statements above. Millions of prayers ARE answered but you fail to mention this. Here's an example you'll never believe but I'll say it anyway. One of the pastors from a former church of mine had a sister with A.I.D.S. To make a long story short her doctors are going nuts because suddenly she doesn't have A.I.D.S. anymore, and the miracle wasn't from any of those so called cocktails. Pretty much the same story with my ex-wife's father. He suddenly developed diabetes and almost died, constant prayer and faith led to a completely clean bill of health. Here's the flip side for you, my mother died of cancer. She prayed for healing like crazy just as we all did for her (family friends, church family, co-workers, etc.). I watched her take her last breaths when only moments before she was pleading to God shouting, "I choose life!" It was not God's will that she stay on this world. Who am I or anyone to questions His will? Like I've said before, He often saves us from ourselves. To save us sometimes He has to "take" us. Capisci?
How about this:
2 Peter 1:20
I especially like how Xians randomly decide when a verse is literal or figurative.
Psalm 19:7
And this is the kicker:
Isiah 40:8
So if his word stands forever, that must mean that slavery is still fine and acceptable, after all, God said slavery is alright, so who's to say otherwise?
You like to claim (with derision) others randomly decide when verse is literal or figurative... but then you do the EXACT same thing. Hmmm...;)
Translation:
If we walk in faith and not by sight, logic, or reason, we can blindly believe things exactly as a child.
TRUE faith changes you. "Scales fall from the eyes", you know that type of thing. There is no overnight miraculous change (at least for most of us), it can take years, perhaps even a life time. You can know the Bible inside and out, go to church all the time, whatever. If you are just going through the motions all the time and not truly submitting to God you're never going to get anywhere. I don't know you personally but I find it extremely interesting that with your stated background you are so against the idea of faith and God. If you had spent all this time as a TRUE Christian and had a strong daily prayer life, God would have given you what you needed to be at peace with Him, and with yourself for that matter. It's about a personal relationship with God, Kal-el. He speaks to us all in a way that is unique and meant for us alone.
I realize this, but who's to say Xians are right? The mere fact that I can find an obvious different meaning in certain verses should tell you something about your imaginary friend's omnipotence.
Again refer to my above statements.
Ok, how the hell do you know all of this? Does the bible explain all of this? Or are you making this up? Is this just wishful thinking presented as fact here? The main problem here is your presuming to speak for God, how do you know it's intentions? And that little tidbit about his will going beyond us, well how do you know then that he wants worship? How are we to understand his book of laws? If nobody can understand him, why do you feel the need to act like his secretary? How can you possibly make sweeping posititve assertions about such an entity?
How do I know this? Yes the Bible clearly explains this, I'm kind of disappointed you even have to ask. Just so you know I'm not "making this up":
Proverbs 3:5-7
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
How is this me presuming to speak for God? ?:( How are we to understand his book of laws? Faith and prayer. It's all very simple AND very complicated. Like anything else in life no one is going to just hand you the answers man, you gotta earn them. I don't "feel the need to act like His secretary", nor do I appreciate your tone. I was respectful in my post to you but you cannot say the same. As to how I can make such sweepingly positive assertions about such an entity. Pretty simple. My faith is strong as is my prayer life. If you can't understand and appreciate that then any further exchanges between us on this matter are moot to say the least.
Let me ask you a few questions, be careful how you answer: Do you believe in Satan? Do you believe in Jonas being swallowed by a whale? Do you believe Adam was God's son? And on the subject, what happened to Satan? I can't see anything bad. if you say he's in hell, seperated from God, then you are detracting from his omnipresence, he is everywhere right?
No need for me to be careful here but thanks anyway. Yes I believe in satan, met quite a few of his running buddies up close and personal too, not fun. I believe in what is written about Jonas but if you want try and play me on that go right ahead. People love to point out how "crazy" the Bible is. Things are not always what they seem and things can hide in plain sight. Many "Christians" are adamant about the nonexistence of extraterrestrials but the Bible is pretty clear about "Sons of God/Nephlim". I've shut up many a Bible thumper with that one. Just one of many examples on that subject. Yes I believe God created Adam (not sure if that qualifies as "son"). Again if an ambush is in wait for me fire away by all means. I know the "apple" wasn't an apple, the unexplained appearance of others, that type of thing. As to satan, come on, like we really have to cover that one? Yes God is omnipresent. Just how exactly does satan being in hell detract from this? ?:( Yes I know satan gets to walk the yard from time to time so to speak btw.
Kal-el I don't think I'm any better than you. I'm not a fraudulent Christian. I've met plenty of those in my time and they do not serve God, they serve His competition. Whether you realize it or not I truly appreciate the fact that you have some actual knowledge of what you speak. This last year or so many of the threads and posters here have become mentally deficient and about as constructive as a bullet to the head. Your intelligence is to be applauded, just try not to be the loudest member of your audience. :P
Peace.
At what point did I single you out and call you a heretic?
I wasn't referring to you, personally. It's just that Xians in general are in the habit of arguing as if they are correct.
Way too many fraudulent Christians out there give us a bad name. A true Christian knows that it is never his or her place alone to judge and punish another.
Exactamente. May I ask, what is your background?
Doubt wasn't okay back in the time of Christ and it isn't okay now. You and I are both human though, so it is our nature to be highly susceptible to this doubt.
I beg to differ here. There's 2 verses I found which say belief is ONLY good when it is supported by evidence.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
21Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Proverbs 14:15
A simple man believes anything,
but a prudent man gives thought to his steps.
Jesus many times throughout the Gospels throws hissy fits and gets ticked at his disciples for not believing and having little faith; he even goes so far as to call Peter a name cause he doesn't seem to grasp the message behing one of Jesus' obscure parables. In Acts, I think it's around chapter 4 (I can't find it now) but the disciples are referred as "ignorant and unlearned." C'mon Peter denies him 3 times, I'd say he doubted this guy was the real thing.
There are many examples of God proving his existence. A huge one is the parting of the Red Sea. Science even backs this up, but since science is of man we can't figure out how this was done. My mother was an archaeologist by the way. Her faith was not strong until her last years but in her circles there were numerous occasions where her and her colleges had come across physical evidence that completely supported Biblical record.
Please nobody. Give me 1 example of God proving his existence, non-biblical. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible correct. C'mon, you seem smarter than this, that's just like me using a DC comic to prove Superman exists.
Half of the events you mention here are acts carried out by MAN, not God.
It doesn't matter. If he created us, (For this exersize we are assuming the bible correct), he ALONE is responsible for the inadeqacies of what he created in humans.
You are making the age old sin of blaming God for the acts of men.
Yes, and rightfully so. Alright imagine this little scenario: Let's say I construct a maze with all sorts of booby traps, knife's falling from the roof, etc. Then I put a few humans in there. Now if anyone gets dismembered by a sharp object, would you say it's his fault? No way, I could have constructed a much safer maze with less hazards. So I ask you this, If God created all things, how is he not implicated either directly or indirectly?
You know the Bible already so we both know I shouldn't have to tell you this. Time and time again God has told us this world is wicked and it will pass away.
Again, he has acted irresponsibly if he cannot create an ideal world. And, I found some verses where God says the earth won't pass:
Psalms 37:29
the righteous will inherit the land
and dwell in it forever.
Psalms 78:69
He built his sanctuary like the heights,
like the earth that he established forever.
Ecclessiastes 1:4
Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever
If we are of this world we will share it's fate.
I'm not disputing that.
We have free will remember?
Free will and omniscience are contradictory. If God is omniscient, he knew millenia ago that I would be typing this now, so I literally have no choice, I must do it. I am unaware of this, I think I am choosing.
Your train of thought here is the same as a felon who blames his nature on a troubled childhood or lack of opportunity compared to the rest of society. The blame game never works
Dude, I know this evil thing is man's fault, I don't believe in a supernatural boogeyman. I'm just trying to show how ridiculous this belief is, we cannot be held responsible for actions that an omniscient God knew we would do.
Again refer to my statements above. Millions of prayers ARE answered but you fail to mention this.
An answered prayer is all in the mind. Ok, Let's say 11 people are critically suffering from cancer. And they are all praying to the same God to help out. And lets say God helps 1 out of 11 of them out. Alot of people will claim a miracle if that happens, and that God is so loving. I think they need to start thinking out of the box here. Is it really considered honorable if you have the power, to only heal 1, when you can heal them all? That's condemning 10 of them to suffer the rest of their lives. Now you would have a point and your God could be exonerated in this little exersize if he overcomes acting like this with love, if not, he is nothing more than a sadistic tyrant.
Here's an example you'll never believe but I'll say it anyway. One of the pastors from a former church of mine had a sister with A.I.D.S. To make a long story short her doctors are going nuts because suddenly she doesn't have A.I.D.S. anymore, and the miracle wasn't from any of those so called cocktails. Pretty much the same story with my ex-wife's father. He suddenly developed diabetes and almost died, constant prayer and faith led to a completely clean bill of health. Here's the flip side for you, my mother died of cancer. She prayed for healing like crazy just as we all did for her (family friends, church family, co-workers, etc.). I watched her take her last breaths when only moments before she was pleading to God shouting, "I choose life!"
I'm deeply sorry about your mother man. That story is exactly the same thing I was talking about above. If he has the power to cure 1 person with the hiv, why not all? That's a cruel thing to do. After all, he is responsible for causing disability (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%204:11&version=31). Like I said above, he can be exonerated if he overcame this and cured everyone, but since he doesn't, that simply leads me to believe either God is imaginary, or else he is a nasty tyrant.
It was not God's will that she stay on this world. Who am I or anyone to questions His will?
O man. So if it's God's will that you go out and make all these porn tapes with 13 year-old girls, and kill 25 people you will? Something doesn't seem quite right about that statement.
You like to claim (with derision) others randomly decide when verse is literal or figurative... but then you do the EXACT same thing. Hmmm...
C'mon nobody. Let's try an honest approach to this. Where have I ever claimed something is meant to be either literal or figurative?
TRUE faith changes you. "Scales fall from the eyes", you know that type of thing. There is no overnight miraculous change (at least for most of us), it can take years, perhaps even a life time. You can know the Bible inside and out, go to church all the time, whatever. If you are just going through the motions all the time and not truly submitting to God you're never going to get anywhere. I don't know you personally but I find it extremely interesting that with your stated background you are so against the idea of faith and God. If you had spent all this time as a TRUE Christian and had a strong daily prayer life, God would have given you what you needed to be at peace with Him, and with yourself for that matter. It's about a personal relationship with God, Kal-el. He speaks to us all in a way that is unique and meant for us alone.
I have been on the other side of the fence. I have went to church, bible studies, youth groups, etc. But 1 thing I should have done from the get go as my time as a Christian is read the bible. The bible is the biggest source for atheism. I have no doubt that you THINK God talks to you. See I personally believe faith is a deadly virus. I think it's one of the most deadly virus' out there. When you submit to faith, you close your eyes and abandon logic and reason, and resort to things like "God did it". If you said this and you were a scientist, you would be mocked and laughed at. Faith = belief without true understanding. Because of religious faith, we have had a monumentous amount of violence, from the Inquisition to the current conflict in Iraq. Everywhere, people who proclaim that their brand of superstition is the right one, are killing eachother in the name of their diety.
How do I know this? Yes the Bible clearly explains this, I'm kind of disappointed you even have to ask. Just so you know I'm not "making this up":
That's funny you wrote that verse, cause I stumbled upon these:
Jeremiah 20:7
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.
Ezekiel 14:9
9 " 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy,[B] I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.
How is this me presuming to speak for God?
Well since you said he is incomprehensible, how can you possibly know what it wants, likes, dislikes, or anything. Why would you submit to total adulation if you can't even understand your God?
As to how I can make such sweepingly positive assertions about such an entity. Pretty simple. My faith is strong as is my prayer life. If you can't understand and appreciate that then any further exchanges between us on this matter are moot to say the least.
Ok, I can understand that man. But in all actuality (I'm not trying to make fun of you here, just proving a point) I can say I have faith in the flying spaghetti monster.
No need for me to be careful here but thanks anyway. Yes I believe in satan,
Good for you. I'd say you're not a true Christian if you don't. Cause in the book of Matthew, Jesus has a long chat with Satan for some 10 verses. If you say he's not real, that's calling Jesus a liar. To add, that's like saying Batman and Aquaman are real, but Superman is fake.
met quite a few of his running buddies up close and personal too, not fun.
Huh? Can you please clarify this statement, thanks.
I believe in what is written about Jonas but if you want try and play me on that go right ahead. People love to point out how "crazy" the Bible is. Things are not always what they seem and things can hide in plain sight. Many "Christians" are adamant about the nonexistence of extraterrestrials but the Bible is pretty clear about "Sons of God/Nephlim". I've shut up many a Bible thumper with that one. Just one of many examples on that subject. Yes I believe God created Adam (not sure if that qualifies as "son"). Again if an ambush is in wait for me fire away by all means.
Not an ambush, it's just in Luke 3:38, he traces Jesus' genealogy back to Adam, the son of God.
I know the "apple" wasn't an apple, the unexplained appearance of others, that type of thing. As to satan, come on, like we really have to cover that one? Yes God is omnipresent. Just how exactly does satan being in hell detract from this? Yes I know satan gets to walk the yard from time to time so to speak btw.
Just the devil being in hell doesn't detract from God's omnipresence. But it does if your punishment is a banishment from God in hell. Because if he's omnipresent, he's everywhere. ¿Entiende?
Kal-el I don't think I'm any better than you. I'm not a fraudulent Christian. I've met plenty of those in my time and they do not serve God, they serve His competition.
In all actuality, a paradiasic God should not have any competition. Satan would have to be really stupid to go up against an omnipotent being, and the bible claims Satan's intelligent.
Whether you realize it or not I truly appreciate the fact that you have some actual knowledge of what you speak. This last year or so many of the threads and posters here have become mentally deficient and about as constructive as a bullet to the head. Your intelligence is to be applauded, just try not to be the loudest member of your audience.
Noted. I enjoy having these religious discussions, but they sometimes can get out of hand. I appreciate you responding and am looking forward to more debate.:) (Even though I'll be pretty busy the next few days, so I don't know when I'll have time to post)
Peace.
Later.
Hola. Been gone almost a couple years. This is where I think I was last. If you're still around Kal-el I'd like to continue these discussions. Hope all is well with you man.
REDZULU2003
03-02-11, 05:40 PM
Bumping for any more insight into this long detailed old thread
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.9 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.