Confederate flag racist?

[NeXus]

Since some people were talking about race I was wondering what everyones opinion was on the issue of the Confederate flag. Im only asking because its seems to be a good controversial thread and with Dem. Howard Dean getting grilled for saying he wants the votes of young white males who drive pickups and wave the confederate flag.

Should we still fly it and should it be allowed on state flags like Mississippi?

Is it a matter or race or history?

Is Howard Dean stereotyping Southerners or not?

I dont get why I always see people waving the Confederate flag like its a peace symbol or something. Now I live in the MidWest so I dont live in the South. But I have family in Missouri and when I go down there I always see people with the Confederate flag plastered on their clothes, cars, and homes. I even went to an anti-war protest in my home town and I saw 4 kids in a pick-up driving and waving the flag as the protesters marched to the capitol. I went to this guys house to buy pot, and there was a huge confederate flag that took up his whole wall. Why are people trying to embace this awful time in American history?

[Godsize]

Well, they like to say "Heritage Not Hatred"...but when you think about it...the South's heritage IS hatred, so it makes no sense.

I immediately think "redneck" when I see a Confederate flag. I mean, the Confederates LOST. Perhaps it's the only bit of "white pride" that is left in this country, but when I see these people, I notice that they are no better than the "coloreds" they make themselves seem superior to.

Notice you are not allowed to be white in America anymore... so if people wanna cling to whatever's left of their heritage and culture, then let 'em. Isn't that what America is? Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

I was born and raised in New York, so what do I know?

[kay]

Yeah, well I was raised in Alabama and Georgia. I absolutely hate seeing these bigots waving the flag and claiming it's "heritage." Besides the fact that the heritage is full of hate, why fly something that causes bad feelings and then tell them that their feelings are petty?

[bigbutnottoo]

All I can say is this:

I am from the Mid-Atlantic, a border line state. I can't speak on the south, but when people here fly the flag or put it on their truck ( and they have never been south of the chesapeake Bay): It is almost always a blatant racist statement and is used for that expressed purpose.



As far as the south, as I said, I can't really say. One thing though, there are many blacks in the south who are "Southerners" too. And believe it or not, many black people support the Confederate flag.

[Godsize]

Actually, even if they wanted to fly a giant swastika flag they should be allowed. You should be entitled to whatever expression you want to make. Flags and symbols are just that, flags and symbols. Big deal.
No one would have a problem with someone flying a "Black Power" flag, so why the double standard? And if someone did have a problem with it, THEY'D be called racist. Now that's a mellon scratcher.

[bobbdobbs]

Having debated many neo-confederates, it's not clear what component of their rants are motivated by racism. But they all regard Lincoln as the aggressor and they contend that he violated the Constitution when he invaded the south.

They say he never intended to free the slaves, that he invented that later to justify his aggression.

They say the south didn't fight for slavery -- but for it's Constitutionally granted sovereignty. Some say that slavery had almost nothing to do with it -- that instead it was the north's attempt to tax the south which caused the war. They say slavery was about to die out anyhow, so the south wouldn't have bothered to fight for it -- or that if the south won the war, slavery would have gone away anyhow.

So the Confederate flag is their banner of pride in their fight against the imperialist north.

Of course all that is looney, since most of the articles of secession of those southern states have slavery as the number one thing they claim to be trying to defend. So the neo-confederates are never too good about reading their own history.

[Godsize]

I wish I knew more about history. It's pretty pathetic that I, as an American, cannot even name all of our Ammendments in our Constitution... but at least I can admit it. There are many people who will never say, "I don't know."

Didn't Lincoln "free" the slaves only because he needed troops for the Civil War? Or did I just dream that?

[bigbutnottoo]

Originally posted by Godsize
I wish I knew more about history. It's pretty pathetic that I, as an American, cannot even name all of our Ammendments in our Constitution...

It may be pathetic, but there is nothing wrong or dangerous about it.

What is wrong and dangerous is our elected officials who either do not know, or explicitly know and blatantly violate the Constitution. I kid you not at least 95% of elected officials knowingly commit treason against the citizens of the USA.

[NeXus]

i disagree

its probably like 96% Jk

Bush is notorious for being a f*ckin moron. Lets see, he was drunk until he was forty. He then ironically got into a drunk drivin accident and hit a bush. He snorted cocaine. Then he was accecpted to Harvard, I think, dispite the fact that he was not academically qualified to get in. He was a drunken frat boy who got straigt C's because he didnt even actually get graded, just awarded a Degree of Business from Harvard. Then got his daddy to get him in the Air Force so he wouldnt be drafted into Vietnam, which he then went AWOL for a f*ckin year! And this is the man who is responsible for health care and education and national security? Dont tell me there isnt someone more qualified.

[REDZULU2003]

To me its just a flag...it means nuthing.
Peeps need to just ignore it.

In Ireland...well parts of it, theirs still STRONG hate towards the Englsih cos we beat them like in the 1500's...500 years ago and took over Northern Ireland and still have it...as a result groups are set up and bomb innocnet peeps in the UK....the IRA....they are quiet nowadays.

Also a group called the Orange men march in the damn streets of ireland causing hate and panic with other groups...reason they called orange men is they dress in orange...why? cos the guy the Englsih beat was William of Orange....this is PATHETIC innit??? peeps need to move on.

The English will NEVER give the North back....its ours just like nearly the whole world was at one time...we were the ultimate conquerors along with the Spanish...who we also beat in the Spanish Armada.

Anyways just ignore the flag...I see no racism innit...these peeps just want to show-off their heritage and pride of the USA.

Lets face it Black peeps dont originate from the USA...they came from Africa by the slave ships to work here.
I aint racist at all....just making a point that it wasnt a Black country to start with.

[GhosT_DoGG]

America seems to be a pretty hatering country in my eyes.

My question is, why the fuck are some White Americans Nazi's?
Its patetic... US fighted againt hitler for got sakes. Hitler wouldnt have let those americans live, he put does suckas into chambers.
Hitler wanted a special type of Human to build up Germany.
Blue Eyed, blond hair and of German deccent, Arye.

I think does fools need some serious thinking... They're so braindwashed there isnt a name for such fucked-up-ness!

What do you really win on hating people who looks different?

Let the nazis take some pills,like a dude did in the 70's i think, so the skin gets black under the time you take em. And place them in the ghetto... Then they'll see life isnt a fairytail.
And they should be realizing they did wrong hating.

Just get those motherfucking faggot ass suckas who Preduce about the Aryan is the Ultimate human, outta the world. SO all the men will realize one thing and another.

We have nazi's over here too, but they aint many, and when they spotted, everybody will beat the shit outta em. Here nobody likes them.

[goodbutnotgreat]

the objection to the confederate banner stems fromt the fact that it represents pride in the confederacy, which was to be an agrarian nation whose economic backbone would be slave labor. the loss of slavery would have been economically devestating to the landed southern elite. while it is true there were other factors surrounding the civil war, the revisionist premise that slavery was only a secondary issue in the civil war is flawed for reasons to numerous to start breaking down here.

people don't object to the existense of the flag, but rather it's use as a state symbol. no groups are trying to outlaw the flag, that is ridiculous. they just don't want a symbol of a society that was built on a foundation of african american slavery to be included as part of state arms, which they feel is offensive and degrading. southern pride is one thing, but celebrating an era when other human beings were owned as property is repulsive. the flag, unfortunately, has a dual nature, representing different things to different people, which creates the debate.

i personally feel that it is very important to reject any symbols connected with racist attitudes. racism still exists and is a very real force. until true equality has been achieved through and throughout, things like embracing the stars and bars serve no beneficiary purpose. i realize the double standard mentioned by godsize is bothersome to many people, but i feel that an attitude of "why can'ti be pro white?" is a dangerous step.

there is no real need to be pro white; white people are not particualrly oppressed and have no need to organize in order to defend their civil liberties, combat social prejudice and work towards erasing economic barriers. being white in american society places you at no significant disadvantage, being an ethnic minority does. when we adopt attitudes that lash out towards minority movements for defending their interests, it's just a few clicks away from justifying racist attitudes. hate movements and such always get fueled from social outrage by a disenfranchised portion of the population angered by some degree of economic or social hardship, who then end up searching for an outlet for their anger (minorities).

the confederate flag is really an irrelevent symbol. it is part of a tremendously important historical event, but in the end it's legacy is only a) oppression and slavery and b) the most gruesome and devestating war in american history. although not a native southerner, if i wanted to show my southern pride, i would fly the american flag. it represents the southern states as it does all others.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by GhosT_DoGG
America seems to be a pretty hatering country in my eyes.

Well, as long as you close those eyes to Europe's notorious levels of anti-semitism. It wasn't just the Nazis or the Germans who were/are anti-semitic.

[Godsize]

It's funny how anti-semitism is looked upon as a haenous crime... and all ya gotta do is disagree with a Jew to be accused of it, you don't have to be a card-carrying Nazi.

Skinheads are the dumbest bunch of shitheads I've ever encountered. And their music sucks. They represent all that is wrong with being White....superior my balls.

Skinhead or not, you're not allowed to be white and proud in America without accused of being racist. Because of course, it was white people who invented racism...*scoff* Gimmie a F'n break. People always liked being around "their own kind" since the beginning of time. And everybody thinks their group is better and blah blah blah. If anybody should be accused of "racism" it should be ...gasp... Jews. They don't care for anyone unless they are Jewish themselves. I don't mean to start a mini race war in here, but I know from real life experience. Yet they never get accused of predjudice. In fact, to accuse them of such would be, you guessed it, anti-semetic!

I refuse to bear the cross of "white guilt". Oh yeah, I forgot that since I was born white, the world is just handed over to me. As if.

Quick anecdote for ya. A friend of mine went to prison a while back. He's white. While locked up, he was given the opportunity to take tests for decent jobs upon his release. In the questionairre, he was asked his race...as a goof, he put down that he was black.... he scored a hundred and five. So you basically get an extra five points just for being black. I don't know if that has any relevence to this thread...just thought I'd throw that in. When the moderators saw him and noticed that he was indeed white...they gave him the job to avoid being accused of predjudice. He caught 'em with that lil' curveball.

Just 'cause you're white don't mean you automatically get a great life. Life is what you make it.

[Texan]

Originally posted by NeXus
Then got his daddy to get him in the Air Force

Wasn't it the Air National Guard?

Anyway, I like Bush. And the President too.

As for the stars and bars... I'm a Texan (bet you never woulda guessed), and the flag does not mean anything close to racism to me. I am fairly conservative on some issues and more liberal on others. I am not for a big national government; the flag to me is all about states' rights. As a Texan, I think we can best say how our state should be run (on most things, not all), and we do not need some politician in DC telling us how we can irrigate our fields or some senator from California telling us how we can pull our horse/cattle trailers just as well with an electric powered Echo. Same as people in Vermont do not need Texans telling them gays can't marry. (obviously I'm generalizing some).

I know I will probably get a few people here who think I am a redneck, but I assure you I'm not. I was just as shocked at "Deliverance" as you and Ned Beatty.

It's just my opinion that there should remain some autonomy and sovereignty to the states. I have a G. Harvey print of "Jackson's Winter Campaign" above my fireplace, and it features the flag. I hope my friends do not automatically label me a racist because of it. I really could not care less what ethnicity a person is.

I think too many people think they "know" what the Stars and Bars stands for (there were five Confederate flags I believe, example: http://rebelstuff.com/confedimages/frstnat2stkr.jpg ). To some people it does mean they don't like minorities, but that's not really what it means to most of us. So please don't say that everyone who displays the flag is a racist, because it simply isn't true.

[goodbutnotgreat]

tex - i don't think anybody said that displaying the flag is inherently racist. i agree with what you have to say about states rights though. the evolution of government has pretty much bowled over the concept of true federalism and it's a shame.

godsize - i'm jewish, i'm pretty sure that i like and care about all the people i know who aren't jewish, which is about 95%. my parents are even the insular "new yawk" variety of jews i assume you are most familiar with, and i can say the same for them. i was suprised to read your comments about jewish people, honestly. i don't make a habit of going around and accusing people of anti-semitism, and i hear plenty of shit because most people have no idea i'm jewish. but um, broad sweeping generalizations about jews only caring for themselves, well man, thats just pretty fucking close isn't it? how is it funny that it is looked upon as bad to be anti-semitic? yeah, never mind, now that i think about discriminating against jewish people is pretty cool, like how some people in my dad's family were gassed to death and stuff! yeah, forget i even mentioned it, sheesh.

you don't like jewish people (obviously) then just say so, i can respect that. don't make up some limp-dicked excuse why it's supposedly okay to not like them i.e. we only worry about each other and label anybody that disagrees with us about anything as anti-semitic. that's just stupid, and cowardly.

[NeXus]

Originally posted by Texan
Wasn't it the Air National Guard?

Anyway, I like Bush. And the President too.


Maybe it was the Guard. But nevertheless the point remains the same. What did you mean above? Do you mean that Bush shouldnt really be the President because Republicans stole the 2000 election in Florida? If so I completely agree.

If not, and you indeed like Gov. Bush, what the hell do you like about him? Besides the fact that hes a Texan. And not even a real Texan. Did you see him on the ranch in Texas posing for pics with the pickup truck and the bales of hay? When I saw that I wanted to slap him. Im so sick of his lame-ass publicity stunts like landing with a real fighter pilot on the air craft carrier with a big banner that reads "Mission Accomplished" and his crotch stuffed with Kleenex and buldging out. What a fuckin joke.

oh yea the flag is a racist symbol end of story. The flag represents the Confederacy, which stood against abolishing black slavery. I have German blood in me. Does that mean its okay to fly the swastika and say that I'm just embracing my roots? Should I read Mein Kampf and say Im just reading up on some old German literature?

[Godsize]

When did I ever say it was okay or "cool" to not like Jews? Perhaps I should have been a bit more clear... when I speak of "Jews" I'm talking about orthodox Jews. Are you orthodox? If you are not, then the hardcore orthodox wouldn't even consider YOU to be one of them, although you'd still gain acceptance over someone like me, a "gentile", or more accurately: a "goyem" (correct me if I misspelled that... it's a Jewish term for non-Jews which is derrogatory). You see, it's perfectly okay for the orthodox to practice segregation...but if anyone else does it, well you know the rest.

There ain't nothin' "limp-dicked" about any "excuse" I make, bro... I've spent quite a bit of time in the Orthodox Jewish community, and let me tell you... I wasn't welcome. And don't you come at me with some limp-dicked excuse as to why I wasn't welcome i.e. I was walkin' the streets shouting anti-semitic obscenties, staring at them with disdain or some bullshit like that. I don't do that sort of shit.

Being labeled an "anti-semite" is just that: a label. It's a political tool to automatically write someone off if they disagree with the orthodox community. Is being an anti-semite bad? That depends on just how ANTI someone is. Did I, or anyone in relation to me gas anyone in your family? No. Do I go around defacing Jewish places of worship? No. I'll be labelled as anti usually if I have a contrary opinion or some stupid bullshit like that. Most of the time if I'm accused of being an anti-semite for an opinion I have, then I know I'm moving in the right direction.

I never said I hated anyone, so stop trying to twist shit. I don't fabricate stories either... all my anecdotes are true life shit.

Obviously, anything more I say about this matter will just get me hostility from everyone here...whether they're Jewish themselves, or just plain PC. So this is all I'm saying. Don't expect any further replies.

[goodbutnotgreat]

. . . It's funny how anti-semitism is looked upon as a haenous crime... and all ya gotta do is disagree with a Jew to be accused of it, you don't have to be a card-carrying Nazi.

. . . If anybody should be accused of "racism" it should be ...gasp... Jews. They don't care for anyone unless they are Jewish themselves.

one thing: an anecdote is a personal experience by nature, not something you draw broad conclusions about entire groups of people from.

another thing: i think anti-semitism is haenous, i think being anti-anbody because of their religion or ethnicity is fucked up.

i'm sick of your whiny horseshit about "white guilt" and the horrible burden of how it's not fair somebody might call you a racist for harboring, what, pro-white (what the fuck is that exactly?) feelings of more commonly for you, anti-minority feelings. the more you write the more it seems you just want to justify whatever latent or perhaps obvious bigotries you're carrying around, and you look for any angle to justify your feelings. you're allowed to be white in america, i anybody bombing your church? you not able to get a cab lately? oh you're mad because you can't express white pride? and who expresses white pride exactly, or why would they need to? can't form a pro-white group? what would that goupd do anyways buddy, been having a whole shitload of problems lately because you're white?

you said some nasty things about jews, in general. and theres orthodox people in my family as well, and i'm pretty sure they aren't in on this big jewish conspiracy that you seem to feel victimized by. and what's the difference? i have a jewish name, a jewish family, i'm a jew. "oh no, i only don't like the orthodox jews . . ." give me a fuckin break, limp-dick. you're just another angy, disenfranchised whitebread dipshit who isn't happy so you blame it on whatever you can find around you, jew, blacks, whatever, they're all screwing you over right? and don't forget, you're a coward too. you make excuses for all your bullshit at a thousand miles an hour, even on an internet forum where you have no possibility of getting your ass kicked. nothing like a limp-dicked coward, they're about as rare as wicked racist orthodox jews are common, right?

oh yeah, and i wouldn't say it's a far stretch to say you hate women in some capacity too. a quick read up on your postts will reveal a general trend of verbal degredation to females in general.

but hey man, to be honest, i think it's a possibility that your bigotry is so ingrained you don't even realize it's there, and you cling to all these sniveling little "it's not fair" arguments you love so much to justify your feelings to yourself, not the people you seem so paranoid of being accosted by ( besides me). you're afraid of your own feelings, because deep down you know they're wrong on some level. that doesn't mean you're not a limp-dicked coward, it just means you're a confused insecure limp-dicked coward.

why don't you spend some time reading and tugging on your dick and quit trying to think up ways to justify your dislikes of certain people. i said it before, you don't like somebody, just say it, don't be such a pussy. if you tell a black guy you don't like hanging out with black people, he'll probably understand. if you stammer some stupid bullshit about how it's not fair that his kid might get a better shot at college because of affirmative action, or you should be allowed to form a NAAWP because black people have their own civil liberites defense group, he'll either 1)shake his head and walk away wondering how people like you still exist or 2)give you a copious ass-kicking that would just add to your thriving list of excuses.

[Texan]

Originally posted by NeXus
oh yea the flag is a racist symbol end of story. The flag represents the Confederacy, which stood against abolishing black slavery.

I guess you know it all then. Come on, the fact that the South supported slavery doesn't mean it was racist! Think man...WHY did the South support slavery? Because slavery supported the South...economically. Slave owners would take a white slave just as fast as black slave. And often did. Why did blacks as well as whites own slaves? It wasn't because they were racist against other blacks. Do not read this to think I support slavery in any form. I don't.

The Confederacy does not equal racism.
The flag does not equal racism.
Slavery does equal racism.

Are there Southern (and northern) racists who sport the flag because they are ignorant? Yes, without a doubt.

I have no idea where you are the midwest, but evidently you have learned a lot more about the south than the people who actually live here. To YOU the flag is a symbol of racism... to some the rainbow is the symbol for homosexuality, but to people who actually live in Hawaii and/or attended the U of Hawaii it doesn't mean that.

All I'm saying is don't judge everyone on your preconceived notions. I mean would you want everybody else in the world thinking you like Bush just because you're American?

I love it when people think Southerners are so stupid that we need you to tell us what our heritage is and what the symbols of our heritage really stand for. I mean really, what do we know...it's just our great-great grand fathers who fought and died... it's a shame you weren't around to tell them that it was because they were racists. The north turned it into a race issue, and people like you are still buying into that today.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by Texan
I love it when people think Southerners are so stupid that we need you to tell us what our heritage is and what the symbols of our heritage really stand for.
More like denial. Apparently if you go talk to the Japanese these days, a common view is that Japan was a VICTIM of World War II. They remember the atom bomb dropping on them. They've sort of forgot about the fact that they were trying to frick'ing conquer everyone in the Pacific or things like the Bataan Death March.

People have a tendency to re-invent their heritage when it ain't so grand.

[Godsize]

goodbutnotgreat-

Ya know I thought I could walk away from this thread, but then you gotta get personal.

You seem awfully hurt by the stuff I posted. Your self-righteous indignation is touching, yet the quotes you pulled from my posts still haven't proved that I said what you THINK I said.

Obviously you're one of those people who cannot have a discussion about such touchy topics without getting all bent out of shape.

I'm glad that you're so much better than me and you can show me all the mistakes I'm making in life, because you are perfect, correct? Without any fault?

I posted the racism articles for discussion. I did not write them, nor did I say I believed them verbatim. If anyone is threatened, it's obviously you. If anyone is whining, it's you. You're taking it all too personal. Stop being such a little bitch-ass.

Yeah, I hate a lot of things. It's part of having a point of view. Who are you suppossed to be? Mother Teresa or something? You love everyone? I pity you.

Yes, I did and do make broad, sweeping generalizations...but I'm not alone. You have also done so in your accusations of me being something I'm not.

Were the things I said about Jews nasty? I don't think so. If you want, I could get nastier. Would that make you happy? Would it, little pussy? Huh?

"and you cling to all these sniveling little "it's not fair" arguments you love so much to justify your feelings to yourself, not the people you seem so paranoid of being accosted by ( besides me)."

Is that a threat? Are you threatening me with violence? Oh yeah, now that's enlightenment! Uh, am I suppossed to be scared or something? You're a fucking pussy. Big fucking crusader. Spare me the posturing, fucktard. You make me laugh. Dude, this is a fucking Internet forum. Real life is a bit more complicated.

I never came at YOU personally. Sadly, you cannot make that distinction. Not because you're a certain race, religion, or creed...it's just that you're an idiot. You're the one taking it to this level.

[NeXus]

Alright you guys are talking about anti-semitism or whatever which is off topic. Take it to the other thread. Plus who cares about religion, we're all going to hell anyway.

But Texan needs to face the truth and stop trying to hide behind some Heritage not Hate story. Its just a dumb excuse to try and wash blood off their hands. Its a fact that during the time of Civil War, the VAST if not all of Confederate Southerners thought of blacks as an inferior race to the white man.

But you are partially right. A big reason the South didnt want to give up their slaves was because a few handfuls of old, white, rich men were making so much money enslaving a whold race of people. I mean shit, why pay people and give em health care when you can make em work free 12hr days, 7 days a week and also get whip and rape em! Yeehaw!

And there you have the beginning state, of what will decades later, evolve into a Republican..........

[goodbutnotgreat]

sorry nexus, but i'm not arguing religion, here, i think anybody who read the other thread knows i'm not a believer . . .

but predictably my new buddy godsize, who swore off debating the matter couldn't stay away when i called him on his bullshit and put in another post that includes the highly descriptive term "fucktard." i often call my little brother a fucktard, it's a fine insult.

"Yes, I did and do make broad, sweeping generalizations...but I'm not alone."

*ahhh buddy, everybody else is doing it, why can't i? think about that one, broadly generalizing groups = preconcieved notions based on superficial appearence, nationality, ethnicity, religion = the foundation of bigotry. you're just digging your hole deeper, but go right ahead. you are truly a grandmaster of excuse making, i salute you for that, you sure have a lot of 'em don't you?*

"Were the things I said about Jews nasty? I don't think so. If you want, I could get nastier. Would that make you happy? Would it, little pussy? Huh? "

*hey man, if you just want to prove me right some more, be my guest. basically all i wanted to do was air you out for what you really are on the forum. you hide your bigotry with a laundary list of "poor me i'm white" and "well i knew this one who acted like this so i know they're all this way" type excuses. if you wanna really rip "the jews" be my guest, tell us all what you really think, like i said prove me right, not that you aren't doing it anyways. nothing a cowardly bigot hates more than to get called out to defend himself.*

'I'm glad that you're so much better than me and you can show me all the mistakes I'm making in life, because you are perfect, correct? Without any fault?"

*nope, but i'm not a fucking bigot, or a limp-dicked coward. and thats all racism is, cowardice, the fear of others. i bet you get real vocal about what you think about all those people when you're having a few beers with the fellas but you wouldn't open your trap in a room full of (insert minority/ethnic group here that godsize feels unfairly oppresses his 'whiteness.').*

"Is that a threat? Are you threatening me with violence? Oh yeah, now that's enlightenment! Uh, am I suppossed to be scared or something? You're a fucking pussy. Big fucking crusader. Spare me the posturing, fucktard. You make me laugh. Dude, this is a fucking Internet forum. Real life is a bit more complicated. "

*dude, accosted (sic) means yelled at or berated, where exactly is that threatening you? sheesh, paranoia, or maybe you're just trying to put words in my mouth and are slightly smarted than i thought, but somehow i doubt it. buy a dictionary, although i'm sorry to say you won't find fucktard among the listings. i wouldn't call myself a crusader, i would say i'm more of a guy-who-likes-to-call-people-on-trying-to-pass-off-bigoted-ugly-horseshit-as-reasonable-rhetoric. not so much a crusader. i never said you agreed with articles you posted before, hey i took your word for it. but you seem to agree with the viewpoint presented pretty whole-heartedly, don't you? and real life is complicated, but it doesn't justify bigotry and lack of uunderstanding, or not owning a dictionary, or being a limp-dicked coward. i'm not only against bigotry on internet forums, but also in real life! normally i wouldn't bother to address (read: present my views to a group or individual, as used, not threaten with physical violence. better when i hold your hand?) somebody on an internet forum, as your type of general stupidity is rampant on the internet, but hey, you're special.

i'll continue being "a little bitch-ass" (you know you can just call me a kyke if you want, it might feel pretty good, and that would have at least been ironically funny) until you clarify your "views." explain to me one more time how you're not bigoted? why jews are shitty people? why it's not fair you're not "allowed to be white?" i'll take a plain old fashioned archie-bunker style bigot over you though. people that can at least be up front about what they feel, that's a million times better than a snake in the grass. people that are too weak to even stand behind what they say and suggest are the really dangerous ones.

or you could just apologize for or at least admit to clearly stating that you think it's stupid that people get bent out of shape over anti-semitism, and that you think jews are all racists and don't care about anybody but other jews. let's not forget that you clearly stated those things in a post and have just been doing some of your sniveling excuse making ever since. i'm doing you a favor buddy, bigotry and your type of backwards rhetoric just trumpets ignorance. you might get laid more often if you had a little bit more enlightened view of the world . . .

maybe i should start a poll: who thinks it's funny how anti-semitism is looked upon as an awful crime? you can vote: hilarious! . . . funny! . . . amusing! . . . huh!? . . . what the fuck!? . . . or . . . gee isn't that a clearly anti-jewish statement? i think bigots are limp-dicked cowards who usually don't own dictionaries!

[NeXus]

goodbutnotgreat, i have a question, what race are you exactley? because if you are Jewish, I thought most Jewish people, for the most part, are generally white? Maybe not though, I dont know much about relgion excepts that Judaism is a little more stricter about their faith. I know you have to be circumsized and you are supposed to only marry other Jewish people. Oh yeah and that Jesus Christ wasnt the Son of God and they are still waiting for the Son of God.

[Texan]

Originally posted by NeXus
But Texan needs to face the truth and stop trying to hide behind some Heritage not Hate story. Its just a dumb excuse to try and wash blood off their hands. Its a fact that during the time of Civil War, the VAST if not all of Confederate Southerners thought of blacks as an inferior race to the white man.


It's true many Southerners did think blacks inferior, but so did most northerners. That attitude wasn't isolated to south of the Mason-Dixon. And that still doesn't address the issues white slaves and of black slave owners.

NeXus, how is it that you came to know so much more about the feelings of the South than Southerners? Did you read it in some book or see it on TV? Because it's obvious you didn't learn it from talking to people in the South. You are so far extreme and fallacious in your views that it is blatantly obvious you have not assimilated these concepts from real life experience.

It befuddles me as to why people claim they want to "end racism" but they point the finger and make race an issue at every opportunity. Like I said, I could not care less what ethnicity or race a person is. We are all just people just trying to do the best we can in this world. That said, I still support the idea of state sovereignty, and St. Andrew's Cross makes a beautiful flag that represents that idea.

[goodbutnotgreat]

nexus - i'm about white as snow man, i come from middle-eastern and austrain abstraction, but i'm about as caucasion looking as it could get.

i'm upset with godsize specifically because of his comments about jewish people. i pretty much had a feeling about him before but i never bothered to address it as this isn't a place really concerned with such matters and i generally give people the benefit of the doubt, or to be more exact, i never bother to accuse anybody of bigotry.

i believe it's a free country and people can be bigoted and intolerent and whatever else if they want to as long as they don't hurt others. everybody, and i mean everybody, has prejudices. but this guy, over and over again, tries to justify and make excuses and blame others. i don't fault people for being racist or bigoted fundamentally, fuck, if thats your deal then whatever, just leave me and everybody else alone. but people that search for a reason to make it right . . . i guess it's worth the trouble to me to call him out on it, in the hopes that anybody that might be persuaded by that kind of bullshit might snap out of it.

when i decry godsize for complaining about how he can't be pro-white i am 100% serious, being white myself. the flaws in the whole "we can't be white anymore" argument are gigantic, i shouldn't even have to break it down, i won't do it right here. it's rhetoric that comes from thinly veiled hate movements and numerous other groups with racist underpinnings, nothing less. it has a very obvious line of thought, but as godsize himself pointed out, the real world is more complicated.

i like this board, i hate to see it polluted. i'm not overly-defensive about my heritage, my friends, family, and myself often joke about the jewish image and stereotypes. it doesn't bother me, i don't even identify with jewish culture that much. i'm the first to say i think the palestinians are getting a rough treatment by the world community. but i won't tolerate godsize's comments, and i have even less tolerance for the excuses he comes up with for making them. that would be the same for any group, muslim, asian, black, hindu, whatever, not just us self-concerned racist jews. anybody who spits that kind of pure poison and then plays innocent is the lowest of the low to me.

there is no logical excuse for racist bigoted feelings . . . none. if you've got them it's your perogotive to feel that way. just don't pretend you're valiantly in the right for having them, or that they're somehow logically justifiable. you like to label people so much, then step up and take yours . . . that's all i ask.

[Godsize]

"basically all i wanted to do was air you out for what you really are on the forum."

What the fuck are you talking about, man?! You don't even know me, never met me, and never will.

And I've got NO problem defending myself. Anyway, I shouldn't even "feed the bears" anymore than I already have since this stupid tit-for-tat bullshit is off the topic of this thread.

This has obviously become a battle of "whoever gets the last post wins", so you can have the final word I don't care.

After re-reading all your responses, I've come to the conclusion that you are simply insane. You're so desperate to "unveil" my "bigotry" to everyone, so utterly insecure and desperate, that you pick my posts apart to the point that you're gonna tell me that "fucktard" isn't in the fucking dictionary? It's almost amusing to see you grasp at straws to somehow prove that I am stupid, or wrong, or whatever...but it's mostly pathetic.

I'm not a racist... I am fully AWARE of it and consider myself a "connoisseur" of racism. Listen man, SHIT comes in ALL colors, shapes and tones. I give everyone a fair shake as individuals. And if not seeing eye to eye with you makes me an "anti-semite", then good... I'm glad. I'm sorry that you're such a fucking VICTIM.

So F you, my man... you don't even deserve to read anymore of my glorious writing. So why don't we just drop this "e-beef" and you can find some other comment to feel victimized and offended by.

As for the originator of this post and all who replied to it, my apologies for steering it off-topic and drawing the attention of fanatics. Sorry.

[goodbutnotgreat]

godsize - dude do you even read my posts? i never said i felt victimized, that's for sure, but whatever. i think you don't directly respond to what i say because i pretty much smoked you but you aren't smart enough to just let it drop or give an inch. how is telling me i'm insane and saying fuck you giving me the last word? what a weirdo!

and connossuier of racism? what does that mean? if you feel you shouldn't have to post again PM me or whatever, but i don't get that. so you are a racist of highly refined tastes? and no dude, i don't know you, but i know what you write and say, and that paints a certain picture. i'm not depserate to unveil anything, i pretty much did right away. actually, you did all the "unveiling" yourself, i just repeated it over and over and asked you to explain. and my "dictionary" comments were concerned with your outrage when you thought that i somehow threatened you with physical violence with the word "accosted (sic)" as i said, fucktard is a fine and storied insult, especially among youngsters like myself.

i don't think anybody minds us arguing that much do they? i kind of enjoy reading posts involving an argument, call me crazy. it is fairly on-topic since we are discussing the core issues behind objection to the flag anyway.

i don't deserve anymore of your writing? as lively and personal a snippet as "If you want, I could get nastier. Would that make you happy? Would it, little pussy? Huh?" truly is, i could honestly do without such brilliantly constructed prose stylings.

i'd say you just don't want to post anymore because in every post all you do is insult me and dodge everything i brought i up. and yeah, i did want to expose you, as i said, i hate to see people making excuses for those kinds of comments as if they were somehow logically justifiable. they aren't man, disregarding everything else, the statements you made about jewish people were generally shitty, bigoted and fairly hateful ("gasp . . . the jews," your writing tells more than you might intend). all i wanted was some clarity on that, maybe you could explain further? instead you called me a pussy and said you could say nastier stuff if i wanted, which i know i'm still waiting to hear.

anybody that goes back and reads this little jewel of thread will get the picture, it's is up there for all to see. i just hope some people read through it so they can see what you wrote, and how you are unable to really defend yourself. almost makes me want to advertise it somehow so more can see what you wrote, but i don't know enough this forum business to make that happen yet.

[goodbutnotgreat]

another godsize quote predating our little exchange . . .

"Now if only we can turn the word "kyke" into a word of empowerment....that'd be something.

Just kidding."


i guess you were kidding, it's pretty funny. why is is funny exactly?

[Godsize]

Since the drugs have now taken hold, and I'm in a good enough mood to post, I will indulge you once more G.B.N.G. -

Maybe we just need to break this down into a simple Q&A, since I don't think I'm "dodging" anything you've said so far.

As for the name calling, I believe you started with the personal insults. Remember how I was "generalizing"? Well, you started in with me directly, so if I call names back, it's in defense. If you want to take my broad generalizations personal, then I cannot help you with that.

I don't feel like getting banned from another forum I like because someone thinks I'm anti-semitic. I would hope that everyone here has a little more dimension to themselves then strictly what they type into a box on a forum, but you seem to have summed me up already, right? Like I said earlier, you don't know a god damned thing about me aside from whatever bullshit I'm typing here. Different days have me in different moods, so my posts can have more than just one outlook from day to day, get it? It's funny how you think you know anything about me as a person, that's why I suggest if you're so interested in picking apart my philosophy of life and society, why don't you present me with a little Q&A, a little test to see if you're on the money about my not-so-hidden bigotry. I'm sure you'd love that and could easily fit it into your busy schedule. I mean, I could be looking for porn right now, yet I'm setting aside my precious time to respond to this dead horse of an argument. I hope it's entertaining. I'm mildly amused, I'll admit.

As far as considering myself a "connoisseur" of racism, I mean I am very aware of racism in whatever form it may come in, and I know that it's not strictly reserved for just whites to put into practice since many other groups practice racism every day (and it doesn't even have to be against whites, it could be non-white against non-white racism). There are many ways one can discriminate. Freedom of choice, I say.

So go shout it on the rooftops. I think the dudes here know me a little bit better than a newbie such as yourself does.

"i never said i felt victimized, that's for sure"

You didn't have to. It's written between the lines how threatened you felt by my statements. You immediately started flinging personal insults my way.

"the statements you made about jewish people were generally shitty, bigoted and fairly hateful"

They were? I didn't think so. I actually think that those statements are true. I don't know what planet you live on, buddy... but I don't make this shit up for my health.

"maybe you could explain further?"

I would, but that would only give you more of a hard-on for me.

I think maybe you're one of those people who enjoy abuse, and thrive on being hated so you have some kind of justification for your existence. Yet, I'm the fool because I keep encouraging you by writing back in this trainwreck thread. I guess I am no better then.

About turning "kyke" into a word of empowerment:

I was thinking along the lines of how the usage of the word "nigga" has changed among the black race.

Like for instance, two rabbis greet each other in the street... "What up, my kyke brotha?" or "Yo Shlomo, you my kyke!"

If you thought that was funny, why are you asking me why it's funny?

Maybe I'm slow, but trying to figure out what you're talking about is exasperating and I find myself thinking as I read, "What the fuck is he talking about?!"

So why don't you create a little "racism test" so you can make your final high and mighty judgement of me in one fell swoop? You keep saying that I'm dodging you, yet I can't understand why you feel like that.

[goodbutnotgreat]

ah now dude . . . that kinda gets my hackles up. did you really suggest using kyke as a word of empowerment seriously, or was it just a light dig at jews . . . honestly, don't take yourself out of context, thats the kind of lying that upsets me . . . and i didn't really think it was funny, i thought it was weird when i read it a while ago, and it pretty much killed the thread . . .

i don't get off on being hated, i don't think i've ever experienced discrimination, as i said i don't look jewish, i have blonde hair and blues eyes. i don't really identify with jewish culture, i've been to temple less than ten times in my life. anyway, here's my test, since you offered, answer honestly please.

1) what is bigotry?

2) is it proper to discriminate because one sees other groups/people doing it?

3) are all jews racist and only care for themselves?

4) do jews use false claims of anti-semitism to enforce their agendas? can you prove this in anyway that is not anecdotal (as in "i had this friend")?

5) do you think broadly grouping individuals and then assigning negative opinions to the group as a whole, based on limited and personal experience, is a platform for racism and bigotry?

6) do you think there is a logical reason to dislike an entire group of people other than that you simply dislike them (i.e. is it somehow logical that you should)?

7) is it helpful to anybody or the world to reciprocate or practice discrimination/bigotry because one sees others practicing it?

8) what are the nastier things you could have said about jews but won't?

9) do you feel you are a prejudiced person?

10) would you tell a group of jewish people that you felt the jews were racist, self-serving, and use accusations of anti-semitism as a political weapon, and would you feel good about doing so?

11) do you feel it is unfair for you to be accused of not liking jewish people and possibly other minorites?

12) do you resent minority rights movements? on what grounds?

13) why do you think people find in distasteful or unnecessary to be pro-white and but feel minority groups are acceptable?

14) what feelings and opinions to you think spark hate groups, racial violence and minority discrimination? do you think intolerence, lack of knowledge, and broadly generalizing are among them?

15) do you think your comments about jews would generally lead people to believe you do not like jewish people based on personal bias and hold feelings of persoanl animosity towards them?

16) do you feel life is unfair in general?

17) do you feel you have personally suffered at the hands of minority cultures/organizations?

. . . that should be enough. if you actually want to take the time, please don't do it while high, i know the words flow and you seemed more mellow, but it might be worth your time to think carefully.

i made personal remarks to agitate you, obviously. i got pretty much the reaction that i wanted as well. when i accuse you of dodging me, i mean that you have failed to explicitly address several of my main points.

my fundamental goal was to at least on some level have you admit that you hold an irrational dislike for jews and perhaps other minorities or minority organizations in general. instead you frequently duck the issue. i believe it is clear you don't really like jewish people, and man, that is totally fine - what upsets me is making excuses. finding ways to justify or explain away such feelings and opinions is far more dangerous than the opinions themselves.

our society is free, thankfully, and we all have a right to not like who we don't like, easy as that. i don't give one moments thought or worry to people that do so, i find them to be distasteful and ignorant, but that's usually somewhat beyond their control as individuals in many cases. when people try to find reasons why it's logical or fair, rational, or reasonable to dislike ethnic/religious/minority groups, that is danger. that is destructive and venemous thinking.

bigotry and such is a cancer in society, it only creates problems, there is no excuse for it - not to say you shouldn't be allowed to practice it.

and i am busy, extremely busy really, but it only takes about ten minutes out of my day to do this, and it's worth it to me.

by the way, i don't think anybody is loading up to ban you, i'm certainly not hoping for that. i would be the first to complain if you were. if it's an open forum then anybody should be allowed, no matter what their views. i don't think you're necessarily a bad guy, we probably agree on more than we disagree, but on this topic i have serious problems with pretty much everything you have to say. maybe i can get you to reconsider some things, i was hoping a public challenge might encourage this. did you suggest you have been banned from other forums though? what is that about? i look forward to a reply.

[GhosT_DoGG]

In my country its like this:

The Swedish flag, who sits on villas, or celibrations... No-one care about...
But there are people who are just struggling to have the flag, and does dont have it for it perpose.
They use it and wifts it in any direction, because they think their white swedish pride, and thrust me. Does in sweden having flags, they usally dislike people whos not swedish. Having flags on boats or things like that, dont desturb people from iran, palestina or whatever. But does who walks around with the pride of being swedish... they are haters to 90% i cna promise you. Thank god they're not many, because then we will beat the shit outta em', and with that i include white, black, hispanic, jewish and other. They are not welcome, they destroy for all the good folks.
They made the refugees and other hatered, because they got to be racist too... You can call that they have their own areas, and hate anything white. But i dont have anything against them, and they have white homies too.... Its just a revenge for the bad welcoming to our country. In my last class in school it was 93% non-swedish... and we got along fine, i actually want to have a class like that were i go now, because its 98% swedish here...

But thats me, im white, not blond, no blue eyes.

And i believe if i moved to America or so i would be as much hated as if i were black in there. Because otherwise Racism make zero sense. I dont talk the language no good, dont know the calulating system do not know where other places then New York, Los Angeles is... SO even if im white i should be hated not being one of theirs. They cant only go on looks, can they?
Over here they go by how people talk. How do they do in AMerica?

Im not a racist!
I hate Nazis, Fascists, when i see one i wanna kill them badly! Now i really talk shit, i dont really want to kill them, it wouldnt solve anything, but i would like to convince them that hating is wrong. A man doesnt hate another without soemthing have happened. Maybe a white kid gets beaten by 3 blacks...
Then he come in contact with Nazis, stop there is the fucking problem! They lie to them so they believe every man whos black want to beat him, that anybody whos not looking like himself are bad. They can never be good. SO they land up on the wrong track, and we other white whos non-hatering, hates them.
Have it been like this:
The boy, are first scared of black people. Then meet someone whos black and been thru the same thing. And they both feel fear of eachother... Then after discussing and alot of thinking, that this isnt bad, his like my friends, nothing different. Just took that as an example. ANd the nother thing.. called grouppressure that is a bitch!
That people who have or have not been experience such thing or not, listen to other peoples stories(often lies) and think that is the only right.

SO if we all lay it up we're all racist, even if it be our own race we hate. But its easier to say your not a racist if ou dont hate other races, but i hate my own so what does that make me?
I still call myself a Non-Racist. Because a jew cna hate another jew, a black hate another black. So why not.

Im not so good at english so it may turn up in other ways than i want.

[Godsize]

"This is the United States of America, and you got a right to hate who you want. So let's start bustin' heads!!"

[goodbutnotgreat]

?? - is that a quote or something, quotation marks? either way rather dissappointing . . .

[Spektrum]

I only read half of these posts. I'm from southern roots and from what I've seen, many southerners that I've had contact with are racist. Almost all of my family lives in north carolina, south carolina, and alabama. I hate to say it, but they are ALL racist. It's not just against blacks, its against anyone that isn't white. Their friends are too. I'm not saying that all southerners are, but from what I've seen, a good part are. It would be ignorant to say that all southerners are racist, but it would also be ignorant to say that the south doesnt have much racial tension.

[C-Guy]

Alright MEN lighten up. WE are all men here. We might not agree with each other, or even like each other for that matter, but we WILL respect each other.The name calling STOPS HERE AND NOW or this thread should be axed! We ARE better than this as a forum and should be setting an example.

[GhosT_DoGG]

Originally posted by Spektrum
I only read half of these posts. I'm from southern roots and from what I've seen, many southerners that I've had contact with are racist. Almost all of my family lives in north carolina, south carolina, and alabama. I hate to say it, but they are ALL racist. It's not just against blacks, its against anyone that isn't white. Their friends are too. I'm not saying that all southerners are, but from what I've seen, a good part are. It would be ignorant to say that all southerners are racist, but it would also be ignorant to say that the south doesnt have much racial tension.
Cant be fun with parents who dislike people whos not white?

My father is not a racist, nor my mother or the rest of my family.

Peeps, a little question:
In America, the worst word to call a black man is "Nigger" right?
In Sweden, we dont have that word, The only word we have is "Negro". And the older generations, use Negro because thats how they thought that, that is what you've call a person whos of dark skin color. Because Negro=Black, in Spanish.
This is how it looks like in Swedish: Negro=Neger, Negro=Negress.
Many people dislike that words, i never use them. But my father uses it, and he has black friends. And the non-white in this country uses it all the time. Even if they're not black. I think, when a white uses it it can send out the wrong vibes, Like "fuckin racist!=jävla racist!"... To me it seem like a discrimination, to use it to say what race you have. What do you others think of that?
ANd in America why does people have to fill in what skin-color/race they have on job applications and so?
We dont have that over here, dont matter what race you are.

[REDZULU2003]

SHUT YA MOUTHS and stop arguing....debate in an adult manner.
If you cant than fuck off...plain and simple.
If you persist than I will give each a verbal warning than if you carry on your account may be expired.....this place aint a kids site...please dont abuse each other.

Godsize
goodbutnotgreat
nexus

^^^ the 3 I am warning right now...consider this a warning...DO NOT DO THIS AGAIN.
Talk about it....sure but remain calm and dont goto pot over such trivial matters...handle the stress, ya never gunna meet so calm the fuck down.

I know who the main perpetrater is outta the 3 of ya...I have ya card marked...one step and ya gone.

[goodbutnotgreat]

couple things . . .

1)nexus wasn't arguing with anybody, debating with texan a little bit, not in on the argument between godsize and i

2)how come we can't argue if it's not on the main PE board?

man, i feel like i've been chastised by a teacher in primary school . . .

[REDZULU2003]

simple it makes the place look bad...un pro and child like.
May seem as though I am being a teacher or whatever...dont act like a fucking kid than....take the warning like the other two have....and conduct yourself in a more adult manner and dont offend members like you have...i.e. Godsize...leave it be...take the warning and stop moaning.

cya

[REDZULU2003]

I have decided to lock this thread.

[REDZULU2003]

alright....its opened again.

[NeXus]

REDZULU2003,

If you read the threads you would know that I wasnt slurring or fighting with anybody. And when I do debate I do so in a civilized manner. Please take back your verbal warning.

I recently was sent a PM by a moderator, who is nameless, and he told me that I shouldn't start such controversial topics. Well first of all, I started a thread encouraging well thought-out opinions about the Confederate flag. And then two people spun the thread off into something totally different.

The person who sent the PM said they would give me another warning because I was responsible for the thread that started so therefore I was responsible for the posts that OTHER users post.

First of all, I am NOT responsible for other users and what they post. If you have a problem with what they are saying, address THEM, not me. I have no control for what another fully capable adult does. So, both of you, please take back your warnings.

[Godsize]

Hey man, chill out. I was PM'd too by C-Guy and he was real nice about it. I'm sorry to have helped steer the thread off topic, but it's squashed now so forget it.

[REDZULU2003]

Nexus...leave it be its in the past.
The warning stays,,,not only you but two others received warnings....not for the topic...I dont mind what the hell is discussed here, but the MANNER is what I was upset about....it was getting childish and that why 3 members including ya self were warned...simple as.

Continue the Confed' flag dbate if ya wish but just remember the rules.

[C-Guy]

Originally posted by NeXus
REDZULU2003,

If you read the threads you would know that I wasnt slurring or fighting with anybody. And when I do debate I do so in a civilized manner. Please take back your verbal warning.

I recently was sent a PM by a moderator, who is nameless, and he told me that I shouldn't start such controversial topics. Well first of all, I started a thread encouraging well thought-out opinions about the Confederate flag. And then two people spun the thread off into something totally different.

The person who sent the PM said they would give me another warning because I was responsible for the thread that started so therefore I was responsible for the posts that OTHER users post.

First of all, I am NOT responsible for other users and what they post. If you have a problem with what they are saying, address THEM, not me. I have no control for what another fully capable adult does. So, both of you, please take back your warnings.

Nexus, Not once in your "friendly advice" pm were you told that you shouldn't start controversial threads. In fact you were asked to use caution thats all.

Not once were you told that you would recieve another warning. In fact you did not receive one from me this time, I only sent you a friendly reminder.

No one said that you was responsible for what others post. In fact it read " when or if it gets out of hand it is your responsibility to get a mod or DLD to address the situation. Thats what the report this post to a moderator button on the bottom of each post is for.

[doublelongdaddy]

Everyone here has the freedom to express their view, comments, beliefs and thoughts in a kind, mature, and intelligent way. A forum is not only a mix of personalities but also countries, religions, rituals, education among 100's of other character traits. We are never going to all agree but this does not mean people can't be kind to one another. Resorting to name calling, attack of character or the like is a bannable offense. I will not stand for personal attacks. Just because someone is different this does not give them no right to be rude or abusive.

DLD

[Metal Ed]

Prickle:

>>>>>When did I ever say it was okay or "cool" to not like Jews? Perhaps I should have been a bit more clear... when I speak of "Jews" I'm talking about orthodox Jews. Are you orthodox? If you are not, then the hardcore orthodox wouldn't even consider YOU to be one of them, although you'd still gain acceptance over someone like me, a "gentile", or more accurately: a "goyem" (correct me if I misspelled that... it's a Jewish term for non-Jews which is derrogatory). You see, it's perfectly okay for the orthodox to practice segregation...but if anyone else does it, well you know the rest.


Actually, this reminds me a lot of what a friend of mine from NYC related to me about his experiences with the Greek Orthodox community. He and his family have been attending a Greek Orthodox Church now for years and have tried with earnest to be "accepted" into their community... without success. It's like a big click, and you have to be Greek to get in. Doesn't matter what kind of person you are... well actually it does....you have to be a Greek person!

Anyway, your comments about the Jewish Orthodox not accepting outsiders are spot on. But, these comments would be true for so many human groups, not just orthodox Jews. Nothing particular to Jews as far as not liking outsiders.... I'd say it's a problem with humanity in general.


Xenophobic tendencies instilled at us in birth
Are mislabelled racism
Hostilities getting worse
Accept the fact my distant cousin we cannot live in peace
Isolated environments may just be the key

Human beings, suspiscious
Soon fear grows to hate
We'll have each other by the throat
When forced to integrate
Mother soon shall watch their children die
At each other's hands
Cain and Abel set the course
Ethnocentric command!

You can run, ya goyem, ya.....but you can't hide!

[NeXus]

Yes, sorry, I was just a little peeved, because I thougt some people were blaming me. I have no animosity against anyone hear.

But who is Metal Ed talking to? I looked throught the post and I dont think hes posted on the thread before but maybe I missed it.

[Metal Ed]

To Godsize. About Homo sapiens. Not liking people who are different from them.

This reminds me of a debate I've been following in paleoanthropology. There are two schools of thought regarding the origin of modern humans: one school, the Eve theorists, theorize that Homo Sapiens arose in Africa somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 years, swept across Europe and Asia, and *replaced* all the other Homo species already living there (Neanderthals, Java Man, etc.)

Eve theorists say that ALL currently living humans are descended from these African Homo sapiens. Differences in skin color and other physical differences between ethnic groups would have come later, within the last 100,000 years, or even less for some ethnic groups. For example, white people are thought to be the result of an immigration from Africa into Europe 40,000 years ago. These immigrants evolved lighter skin tones as they moved away from the equator but remain essentially unchanged otherwise.

The other side, the multi-regionalists, believe that any humans that left Africa would have interbred with the Neanderthals and other groups of humans that they found in Europe and Asia.... not replaced them. They believe that all currently living humans are the result of this melting pot of different human "species", although the multiregionalists don't consider Neanderthals to actually be a different species from us.

The multi regionalists decry the Eve theory as the "killer African" theory. The Eve theorists, they say, are advancing a theory wherein we are all the descendants of a species of killer Africans that swept across three continents, exterminating all who were different from them.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
I am NOT responsible for other users and what they post.... I have no control for what another fully capable adult does.
That is a very interesting individualist position. :)

Liberalism asserts a collective responsibility -- "society is to blame", "society must pay" etc.

It's not quite clear to me in the liberal ideology when people are responsible for the consequences of their own actions and when that burden should shift to society (everyone else but them.)

[NeXus]

oh please.

I've dont even call myself a liberal. I take every issue and make my own opinion with knowledge of both sides. I give both sides credit where credit is due.

Im not blaming society for anything so I dont even know what the your talkin about. I guess according to you Im responsible for your post because I started this thread, right? So dont screw me over!

Also dont tell me about liberal ideology because its obvious your political views are screwed because your on the Right side of the spectrum.

Also, talk about blame shiftin! Is just me or dosent the Right always cry wolf about a Liberal Media Bias when something dosent go their way? Or how Rush Limbaugh blames Clinton for everything? Its the Liberal Blame Game even though Republicans control the Senate, House of Reps, Congress, media, and the White House.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
dont tell me about liberal ideology because its obvious your political views are screwed because your on the Right side of the spectrum.
Actually I'm Libertarian. I'm in favor of personal freedom, which cultural conservatives oppose (drug use, porn, etc.) Being in favor of personal freedom also puts me at odds with liberals who want to regulate (hate speech, guns, etc) and tax us to death to fund their favorite little programs.

I think people should be free to do as they please as long as they aren't assaulting other people or stealing their property.

[bigbutnottoo]

Originally posted by bobbdobbs
Actually I'm Libertarian

Wow, I always knew I couldnt be the only one in the PE world.

[NeXus]

actually most liberals think that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes and stop all these tax loop holes that the governement gives these big business cronies.

you agree with that dont you? I mean, everyone should pay the same taxes whether you are rich or poor, right? You, know equality? It seems fair to me. In fact I take it a step further, I say make the people who make $250,000 or more a year, pay more taxes. Thats more money for public services, public schools, libraries, infrastructure etc. Not to mention more money for the average American Joe like you and me. Plus their rich snobs anyway, so they wont miss it, they spend more on their maid services to clean their friggin mansion.

But I dont neccessarily agree with hate speech. Why hate? Unless their a child molestor or rapist or something. But why hate based upon race or nationality, its not like people can control where they were born or what race their parents are. Everyone has to come from somewhere.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
actually most liberals think that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes and stop all these tax loop holes that the governement gives these big business cronies.
Consumers pay for all corporate taxes. All producers pass on the cost of taxes (and all other expenses) in the purchase price of the goods or services.

So when economically mis-informed liberals demand that the taxes on corporations and the "rich" be raised -- those increases are immediately passed on to the consumer in the form of price increases.

Politicians who love spending money (they always get credit for spending other people's money) love the economic ignorance of the liberal mindset. P. T. Barnum couldn't ask for bigger suckers.

[penguinsfan]

I don't own one. I've never displayed one or put the stickers on my vehicles. Still, it has a personal meaning to me. I remember reading some writings of the founding fathers and they believed in a states' right to secede, if they no longer wished to be part of the Union.

I have grown quite tired of the non-productive political debate and schemes in this country. What is needed is a division into two states, one more liberal, one more conservative. I know I will never see secession, as wonderful as it would be, but the Confederate flag makes me think of what things would be like if such a dream were ever realized.

[Godsize]

I think most people, if given the choice, would choose self-segregation. Variety IS the spice of life, though.

[NeXus]

I just think its wrong for companies lay off people just because their profit percentage dropped a half of a point. I think we can both agree that its wrong. They're too fuckin greedy. Also, its not a democracy when big business and special interest basically picks who will run this country. Also keep in mind if taxes increases on the business, that means more money for school, infrastructure and public services, instead of the biggest national debt increase since Reagen was in office.

Just look at the 2000 election. The supreme court took the election away from the democrats. The Right needed a Republican in office. Especially since Clinton was a pretty good president. They control the media, white house and congress. If there was a "liberal" media, then people would jump on the story that Bush has been doing business with the bin Laden family and the Saudi Royal family years for before 9/11. And then after 9/11, 24 bin Laden family members were flown out of the US w/o letting the FBI or CIA question them about Osama.

Imagine if we found out Clinton had financial interest with the McVeigh family after the Oklahoma City bombing. Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh's head would explode!

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
Imagine if we found out Clinton had financial interest with the McVeigh family after the Oklahoma City bombing.
Presidential financial interests are usually put into trusts while they serve. But beside that point, what exactly is the problem with the McVeigh family? Decent people as far as I know.

[NeXus]

No nothing wrong with the McVeigh family at all. I have no idea who they are. Just using it as an example. But the Bin Laden's......thats another story.

What Im saying is that if Clinton did in fact have financial ties with the family of a known terrorist bomber, the Right would have jumped on that story and ripped Clinton apart.

As far as Im concerned, the Dems are being pussies by not hanging Bush for this. They never mention it. They're too dickless or something.

The President did have ties with the Bin Laden family and still have ties w/ the Saudi Royal family. The Saudi's have been the US's business partner since forever. The Prince Bandar even calles George H. W. Bush the first, "Bandar Bush". Why do you think that the headlines read "Terrorists attack World Trade Center". Despite the fact that almost all the hijackers were Saudi's. And now were in Iraq. For WHAT?

If a bunch of Chinese attacked the WTO. Headlines would say "Chinese attacks WTO".

But come on, you know O'Reilly, Limbaugh and Hannity would hang Clinton if this was his case. The only thing they could get Clinton for was getting a blowjob out of wedlock and lying so his wife wouldnt find out. I actually feel bad for the guy. I mean who dosent enjoy a blowjob?

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
The only thing they could get Clinton for was getting a blowjob out of wedlock and lying so his wife wouldnt find out. I actually feel bad for the guy. I mean who dosent enjoy a blowjob?

It was ironic that the liberal Clinton was being dragged into court on a workplace sexual harasment suit (by private citizen Paula Jones) -- something liberals love to support until it happens to them. You know, looking for patterns of behavior, etc.

Unfortunately he and Ms Lewinsky decided to commit perjury (Clinton was eventually disbarred for that in his home state.)

So it had nothing to do with sex per se -- despite the Carville spin.

What was troubing was that it came out that Clinton had raped Juantia Broderick some 20 years earlier.

Hard to feel sorry for a rapist.

[NeXus]

first of all Clinton was not even arrested or tried or anything for rape, so dont even start make assumption. Dont act like getting your dick sucked has anything to do with politics. You must also feel thats its necessary to waste the American tax payer's money for some stupid investigation. You could of settle this case on FoxTv on Divorce Court. Instead of having to go to the Supreme Court. What a waste of time and money.

Oh yeah, and he didnt harass anybody. It was a consented sexual act.

You seem to make a big deal out of adultery, you'd probably like Suadia Arabia. Yeah! There, they behead people for crimes like infidelity, sodomy, and adultery.

[bigbutnottoo]

Originally posted by NeXus
Also, its not a democracy when big business and special interest basically picks who will run this country.

Its not supposed to be a Democracy anyway.

[bigbutnottoo]

Originally posted by NeXus
first of all Clinton was not even arrested or tried or anything for rape, so dont even start make assumption

That is true, but dont you think its strange that so-called feminists and supporters of sexual harrassment legislation paid no attention to any women who claimed they were sexually harmed?

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
Clinton was not even arrested or tried or anything for rape

and he didnt harass anybody. It was a consented sexual act.

The Juantia Broderick rape was beyond the statute of limitations by the time she came forward. He was Attorney General of Arkansas at the time of the rape. She figured she didn't have a chance at the time.

Whether Clinton harassed Paula Jones or not was what the civil case was about that she was bringing. Unfortunately Clinton and Lewinski conspired to commit perjury in that case, and Clinton was later disbarred in Arkansas for his perjury.

Like Nixon before him, it was the cover up more than the alleged crime that did him in.

[NeXus]

What about Arnold? He groped all those women and even admitted to it. But since he's a Republican he gets a free pass, and Clinton gets impeached.

If she really did get raped she would of come forward much sooner. If she waited that long, it probably didnt happen. Dosent matter who he is, when there is an allegation, there is an investigation.

But yet again, these have nothing to do with politics. But explain to me why America is not supposed to be a Democracy? Is it Faschism then?

[bigbutnottoo]

Originally posted by NeXus
But explain to me why America is not supposed to be a Democracy? Is it Faschism then?

It's a republic. a Constitutional Republic.

When Ben Franklin was asked his opinion on whether to have a Democracy of Republic, he replied "A Republic, if you can keep it."

Because he recognized that a republic was the much preferred form of government, but it would be difficult to maintain. It would require, as Jefferson said "eternal vigilance."

[bigbutnottoo]

As far as the whole Arnold groping situation.I'm not sure how to state my opinion on this. I would try to put it delicately,but..
Basically, I dont think it's that big a deal.I dont think its a good thing if he did violate someone's person/ However, the sexual game is very complicated. There is a lot of flirting, verbal, non-verbal, physical,etc. And sometimes you have to be a little bold and "make a move" or whatever. And adults can usually handle themselves in that situation, feel out things, and lay down boundaries. I mean, I've grabbed an ass or 3 in my young life, and it was always welcome; but I'm not always 100% sure before hand. You read signals and touch people in certain ways and feel things out. its a big double standard, because (at least in my case) females tend to be agressors in certain physical flirting. I mean, I cant tell you how many times a female has touched me in a certain way, purposely brushed my genitals,etc But I'm not going to press sex assault charges against a female for flirting with me. Or if a girl starts giving me a blowjob without first asking permission for every move, I am not going to charge her with rape.. thats another thing: Theres something wrong if you can have sex with a woman and she never withdraws consent, never says no , but "thinksto herself "no" inside her own head but never articulates it, and its considered rape.
Among other things.

But, you see it doesnt really matter what I think on the issue. the problem is these people who lobbied to basically make normal male/female interactions a criminal offense, leaving many men afraid to have testicles less they endup in prison for a casual misunderstanding. But they create a special class ( Clintons, Kennedys,etc..and usually people that committ REAL sexual offences) for whom these laws do not apply.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
explain to me why America is not supposed to be a Democracy?
In a pure democracy, minorites serve the pleasure of the majority.

The US is predominantly white, predominantly Christian, predomiantly hetero.

Now if majorities define the "morality" of governance, then if they wish to enslave the minorities, or opress them, or exterminate them ... well, that's democracy.

If you assert that individuals have some natural rights that aren't rightly abridged even by majorities, then you no longer want a pure democracy.

What the founders did was to establish a layering of authorities (local, state, federal) and a distribution of power to competing branches (legislative, executive, judicial.) All are constrained by written Constitutions that take a lot of agreement to change.

Some layers and branches have fast turnovers, some have lifetime appointments.

The whims and impulses of the populace are thus smoothed out, filtered over the long term.

When we want change, we are always impatient for the outcome, and lament the slowness of the system. But on the other hand, it prevents massive erosion of other rights when passions are inflamed.

[NeXus]

Its not a democracy even if the majority wants to enslave or whatever you said. Because theres a thing called The Constitution which invoke Civil Liberties to prevent these kind of things.

I dont think anyone in office should serve life-terms in there job. Especially the Supreme Court. Old people dont change with the times. I bet the majority of racists and anti-gays, are older people who are so afraid of the unknown that they freak out. Look at Jerry Falwell. He discriminates against anyone who isnt a white Christian. If he had a gay son, I bet he's dis-own his own flesh and blood.

Tell me, how are your rights being eroded?

With the new Patriot Act, very ironic name by the way, my rights are starting to be trampled. The laws that were set in place, in the Vietnam era, for the FBI and CIA are now being revoked. They can now profile protestors and basically anyone who questions their governmnet. I hate it when people say that Im not patriotic because Im not for the war, or because I hate Bush.

[goodbutnotgreat]

show me some evidence that clinton or kennedy are rapists please . . .

you guys go around saying that "oh, female/male relations are complicated, rape can be a double standard" and all this other dribbling justification for arnold possibly violating a few women, then you string up clinton and kennedy for what so far as i know is just hearsay?

i'm not going to get too riled up on here because i got in trouble before, but um, i'll just say that a couple of half-confident high school lincoln douglas debaters could have a field day with a few of the posts up here.

one thing i will say: when liberals attack conservative presidents it's about politics. when conservatives go after liberals, it's about slander so they can sabotage. easy as that. sometimes i wish the democrats would really get nasty like the GOP has defined itself by doing, but in some ways i'm proud they keep it above the belt.

[bobbdobbs]

Which Kennedy? JKF was quite the womanizer. But as far as I know they were all more than willing.

Clinton was accused of rape by Juantia Broderick. In any accusation, you have to pick who you believe. Juantia sounded believable to me. She expressed interest in working for Clinton's campaign based upon mutual policy agreements. Clinton invited himself to her hotel room to discuss whatever. She accepted. Once inside he forced himself on her, biting her lip until she relented to his sexual demands. Her friend witnessed the swollen and torn lip just after. So she has corroborating testimony to the time and place of the physical injury. She also related the rape story to the friend at the time. NBC TV verified this occurred at a time/event where Clinton was that day.

So there are two witnesses who'd testify to the physical injury, though, of course, only Juanita was in the room with Clinton at the time.

Since he was Attorney General of Arkansas at the time, she was too afraid of the consequences of coming forward. After Clinton's "nuts and sluts" smear team got done trashing her -- it seems her long fears were born out.

Clinton was/is a low life. He was willing to trash Lewinski herself as suffering from fantasies etc rather than to simply refuse to answer. Too bad for him she kept that blue stained dress.

Kennedy, by comparison, had some class.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by goodbutnotgreat
one thing i will say: when liberals attack conservative presidents it's about politics. when conservatives go after liberals, it's about slander so they can sabotage.
I think liberals classify their hatred as righteous. Therefore their hatred is a good thing, aimed at the right targets -- virtuous even.

The funny thing is, everyone who hates feels exactly the same way.

I've never seen a hater of any political stripe who didn't feel that his or her hatred was not only justified, but a moral duty.

[goodbutnotgreat]

quite valid

[NeXus]

So what exactly do liberals hate?

Also, sexual incidents have nothing do with politics. It has to do with monohamy. So drop it already. Bush turned a Clinton trillion dollar projected surplus into a trillion dollar deficit. Clinton was a very good president and a very charismatic leader, Bush is one of the three stooges.

[bobbdobbs]

Originally posted by NeXus
Also, sexual incidents have nothing do with politics. It has to do with monohamy. So drop it already. Bush turned a Clinton trillion dollar projected surplus into a trillion dollar deficit.
I think monohamy has to do with Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy.

Manufacturing employment began declining three years before the end of the last Clinton term.

And of course the dot.com bubble happened under Clinton.

So the previous recession that we are now coming out of was set up during the Clinton years.

However, beyond the partisan braying, presidents have very little to do with the economic cycles.

If you want to learn anything about how the economy really works, the first thing you have to do is filter out the blatherings of partisan political hacks.

[bigbutnottoo]

Originally posted by goodbutnotgreat
show me some evidence that clinton or kennedy are rapists please . . .

you guys go around saying that "oh, female/male relations are complicated, rape can be a double standard" and all this other dribbling justification for arnold possibly violating a few women, then you string up clinton and kennedy for what so far as i know is just hearsay?


As usual, I never said that. My statements of the sexual harrassment ambiguity applied to all people. I never accused Kennedy or Clinton. But I did point out the double standard in that self professed liberals or feminists gave Clinton and other liberals a free pass.

Furthermore, Arnold is a liberal. He ran under the (R), but his policies are more in line with Democrats. True conservatives, at least ones with any principles, voted for McClintock or Gary Coleman. Of course, I am neither (R) or (D).

[GellyBird]

Arnold is both a conservative and a liberal. He is liberal in his moral values but conservative in his economic values, which California despertly needs.

[goodbutnotgreat]

bigbutnottoobig, i think i was combining a few posts in my head, the one by you that i was referring to was the one citing a special class of sex offenders you felt were created for kennedy and clinton. i just have never heard any substantial evidence that either have engaged in any sexual conduct one could call illegal. inappropriate, tasteless, maybe, but not sexual offenses so far as i know. didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

[ItsMeAgain]

Well they say the "Confederate Flag" is a symbol of a history that the white southerns don't want to forget... so I say "fuk it"... keep the flag, lets fly the German Nazi flag and see how long that stand... or better yet, lets fly the Japanesse flag (circa: 1940) over in Pearl Harbor!

It's all about the concept of the damn flag!

HELL YES the Conderate flag is a concept of white southern racism!

[AncientChina]

Another great and lengthy post from MOS!

I would say I was surprised the most from posts made by "goodbutnotgreat", excellent job. his ability to empathize without blind emotion with everything and everyone along with having a good solid base as a person and intelligence made his posts great to read, and more advanced as far as self-awareness and awarenss of others go.

It is true among many things people seem to try to justify or change parts of history we may not like much. We can see this with Columbus and many other situations. To say that the South doesn't have more and stronger racial problems is yes absurd, heritate not hate? Well what do you do when your heritage is just that strong hate, the excuses given still fall short.

People are only thinking about how things that effect them, I am sure if you were a southerner of another color that flag would bother you a bit ehhh. Even up here in upstate new york right near Fort Drum we have a few if the hickish type who use the flag most of the time for shock and so on, but some may just like it? Some say it's heritage yet they don't even know anything behind it and some do it for attention and such...Second of all what heritage? This is upsate new york....its more for personal issues. In Ft. Drum I have not seen one and we have good men and women who serve from every part of the country even southern parts, I would take more pride in the community and workmanship of our Armed forces than something like that which denied citizens. If anything the Army is closes to an equal systems, but all things have flaws

People are so effected by what society shall caste upon them and their personal opinions that is why it is so hard to find a solid good point made without bias.

PS. A funny story a fellow student said in class, he saw a big truck with a huge confederate flag and guess what they were rockin' too? An Ashanti song. rofl