Creatine vs. Whey Protein

[Scrub Ducky]

Which one of these helps to build bulky muscle faster?

Some info about me.I know some of this is important if your gonna take creatine...
I'm young...18
My family DOES have a history of kidney stones/problems
I have a very high metabolism

Thank you very much :)

[Spektrum]

Whey Protein.

Stay away from creatine. I've known many people who have taken it and soon had joint problems. Also, they lost about 10 pounds after getting off creatine because of the water gain you experience while taking it.

The point of creatine is making muscles heal faster. This means you can do more reps in the gym in your later sets, can have longer workouts, and you don't have to take a 2 day break after an intense workout. Your muscles heal up quicker, but your joints do not.

It also makes your body retain too much water. This is why many people on creatine have that 'bloated' muscle look. It's fairly obvious when someone is on it. You can gain up to 15 pounds of extra water weight while on it.

Stick with the natural stuff. Eat a LOT of protein, if you weigh 130 pounds, try eating 200 grams a day. The biggest part of putting on muscle is rest, rest, rest! Look up overtraining on the internet, its a big newbie mistake.

[oopapercutoo]

Whey protein is probably your best bet...Protein is definately essential to building muscle, whereas Creatine is not.

Spektrum, you're right about what you said about Creatine causing you to retain water, but in all the research I've done on creatine, I've never found a reliable source saying anything about negative effects on joints. Providing that the user follows the proper dose amounts there should be no adverse effects with creatine.

If these people were taking well over the recommend dose then it's plausible that they may have experience some problems, but that's the case with ANY supplement. The number one tool in bodybuilding is you head...make sure you use it or you're phucked.

[NeXus]

I used to take creatine and it definatley worked better and faster than whey protein. The problem with the protein, is that you have to take a whole fuck load everyday to get minimal results.

Creatine does inflate the muscles cells with water. I dont really see how thats bad. But its more than just "water weight". When you take creatine, make sure to take it with grape juice or something else with a lot of sugar. The sucrose in sugar helps the creatine get into the cells and gets the cells to take in more water and get bigger. Which means your bigger and stronger.

[Shafty]

Actually creatine is supposed to counter the excessive water retention that most people suffer from occasionally. This happens when the stuff draws water from beneath your skin and other parts of your body, pumping it into the muscles, resulting in a lean yet muscular look. This should happen if it is used correctly.
Another important factor that should be taken into consideration when using creatine is making sure you drink enough water. This will eliminate any possible negative effects to the kidneys, and prevent your body from dehydrating too much.

I've experimented with creatine and found it to be quite unnecessary. If anything it is useful for cosmetic purposes...
but then again, that's just my opinion. Other people might experience more benefits from it. ;)

[NeXus]

i think it works pretty well. But your right, after you drink the creatin mixed with the juice, drink plenty of water throughout the day, everyday.

[Scrub Ducky]

Great Posts you guys.
I think I might just buy a little of both and test both of them.I have already been using whey protein for quite some time, because I wanted to stick with natural stuff, but I'm not that happy with where I am.I also know a guy who uses protein and he got huge in like 6 months.

When your on creatine you need to drink to hydrate your body, I now know that...but do you get thirsty?It'll be harder to keep up if not.

[Shafty]

...but do you get thirsty?It'll be harder to keep up if not.

Not necessarily. That's why it is crucial to drink close to a gallon every day to ensure that you stay properly hydrated. Your body might not signal you to drink more, so you have to remember to do it even if you're not feeling all that thirsty.

[bigbutnottoo]

BOTH.


Also as far as creatine and water-most of your muscle is in fact made up of water, so that is beneficial.

I am currently doing my own study of:

Creatine vs. Whey vs. NO2

and all combinations.

[Spektrum]

Originally posted by Scrub Ducky
Great Posts you guys.
I think I might just buy a little of both and test both of them.I have already been using whey protein for quite some time, because I wanted to stick with natural stuff, but I'm not that happy with where I am.I also know a guy who uses protein and he got huge in like 6 months.

When your on creatine you need to drink to hydrate your body, I now know that...but do you get thirsty?It'll be harder to keep up if not.

Your age probably has a little something to do with not being able to grow. I gained about 5 pounds a year when I was lifting at 18. Now at 21, I'm gaining about 5 pounds a month, maybe a little more. There's an old saying in bodybuilding, "Eat big, get big". It's working for me.

You also said you have a history of kidney stones. DRINK WATER! and lots of it. Go the bathroom when you feel the urge. My family also has a history of them and the horror stories they tell me are terrible.

[bobbdobbs]

Whey protein is a relatively inexpensive and concentrated means of increasing the protein in your diet. Pound for pound, it is cheaper than things like poultry, fish and beef.

If you are body building, you'll want to increase your protein intake because that is what is used to build your own muscles.

You can do it with natural food, like chicken, but if you have a really high metabolism, you have to eat a lot of it, which is where whey protein can be useful.

Creatine, on the other hand, is simply a cell energy source. It may help get you one or two more reps in the weight lifting gym.

It does also tend to cause people to pick up 5lbs or so of water retention, but it is in the muscles, so that's good. But 5lbs spread around all the muscle tissue isn't all that noticeable.

Creatine is pretty cheap, though, as far as suppliments go.

[Shafty]

The biggest advantage of whey protein is its fast absorption rate, meaning that your body will process and utilize the stuff very quickly.
(compare to quick carbs and low glycemic carbs versus whey and, say, casein)

This is only beneficial immediately after you've worked out though, since your body is primed to take high glycemic nutrients to counter the catabolic process that kicks after a workout session. At any other time of the day something like casein (milk protein) or egg protein would be a better choice because they absorb slowly and don't cause a rise in your insulin levels, insuling being the hormone that is primarily responsible for controlling your bodyfat accumulation.

Casein and egg protein can also be found at places like GNC. I agree with bobbdobbs on the cost efficiency of protein powders, because let's face it, we can't all afford to have 4-6 meals of poultry, fish or beef every single day.

[stillwantmore]

Creatine IS the cheaper of the two choices. However, it will not help you pack on much muscle. Most of the "weight gain" is in fact water being retained more in your muscles. Also, if you are taking your creatine with grape juice or, it is a very high carbohydrate combined creatine supplement such as Muscle Tech's "Cell Tech" (around 75 grams of simple carbs per serving), the weight gain you see is probably FAT gain. Creatine buffs...the guys who are the hard core users that swear by the stuff....as well as the companies (Like Muscle Tech or ProLab) strongly advocate that you take your creatine with a high carbohydrate beverage. WHY? Because the high dose of carbs taken at the time of creatine consumption (Muscle Tech sez their "research" indicates you need at least 75 mg of carbs) is supposed to cause an 'insulin spike' and this in turn, is supposed to help your system absorb the creatine ("dump it" into your system is usually the term they use) more effectively.

All this of course creates problems for people looking to add muscle mass and at the same time lose body fat. It becomes an uphill battle. Not to mention the fact that if you have diabetes or a family history of it, you better not be messing with your insulin levels like this.

Whey protien is the better choice but usually more expensive. If you need to add 150+ grams of protien to your daily protien intake to gain the muscle mass you need, ...that's a lot of protien shakes. At least 3 shakes a day even with milk (mmm bovine hormones....mmm...hope you dont have a family history of cancers too). Youre also looking at making a pretty drastic (for most people anyway) dietary change. Shopping for food at the grocery store becomes a hunt for protien rich foods. Milk, eggs, meats, seafood, especially TUNA. From what I recall TUNA is about the best and least expensive source of concentrated protien. VERY CLEAN source too. Meaning theres nothing extra in the tuna. Something like 25-30 grams of protien in one .60 cent can of tuna.

So I guess the best bet is to analyze your budget and see how high of a protien intake you can afford LOL. I remember when I was working out more in the Marines and would read "Muscle Mag" or similar pubs. I would read about these body builders who supposedly consumed 300 or 400+ grams of protien a day. I was like, damn how the hell they afford that, their growth hormones or steroids and living....oh wait, they have corporate sponsors!:bottumsup

[TimBo755]

Whey protein all the way, i've been taking it for sometime now....i've gained about 5-7 pounds of muscle so far, i lift 1 on and 1 off type routine..mostly upper body.


i recommend 100% whey protein, mint flavor..tastes very good with skim milk. :)

[quijjiboo]

Whey protein is essential if you are working out and want to add muscle. The difference between trainers who gain and trainers who suck is DIET (whey protein is food, not a supplement). More calories + more protein is the key, believe me on this one.

I also think creatine is beneficial, and won't cause you any side effects even at 18. It will help you gain faster, and you'll have some extra temorary size while you are on it. But dont worry about looking bloated, the water stored is intracellular. Muscles perform and recover optimally when they are super-hydrated.

Btw, protein and creatine are about the only two effective 'supplements' for gaining muscle, props to you for choosing them.

[quijjiboo]

Originally posted by stillwantmore
I would read about these body builders who supposedly consumed 300 or 400+ grams of protien a day. I was like, damn how the hell they afford that, their growth hormones or steroids and living....oh wait, they have corporate sponsors!:bottumsup
and gay sugar-daddy sponsors rofl

[TheExecutioner]

Originally posted by Spektrum

Stick with the natural stuff. Eat a LOT of protein, if you weigh 130 pounds, try eating 200 grams a day. The biggest part of putting on muscle is rest, rest, rest! Look up overtraining on the internet, its a big newbie mistake.

Can i just say something here, There is nothing Unnatural about Creatine. Your body nautrually makes it, and the foods you eat contain it.

[NeXus]

yeah, creatine is in fish and eggs. the powder is just the synthetic form, i think.

[Scrub Ducky]

Well I got a big tub of creatine and whey protein.Now can I take the creatine with cranberry juice instead of grape juice?

Also, since I'm going to be taking both the protein and creatine, how should I go about doin it?Like, 1 day protein, 1 day creatine or a little bit of both after a workout?
I usually work out 6 on 1 off.

Thanks to the mod who moved this thread,for some reason I didnt see this health and fitness board.Im a wetard :P

[Shafty]

Now can I take the creatine with cranberry juice instead of grape juice?

Any high-glycemic juice will do (high glycemic = simple carbs, sugar) ;)

It doesn't necessarily have to be grape juice. I don't know why people put so much emphasis on its importance, since it is just one among many of the alternatives.

BTW, your 6 on 1 off workout routine seems like a bit much to me... I'd say you would get better results by decreasing the amount of days you work out. Try something like a 4 day split routine for starters, that should allow your muscles to recover properly! :)

Oh yeah, and take the protein post workout, mixed with WATER. This is crucial, because if you mix it with milk it'll absorb much slower, resulting in the catabolic process (muscle tissue breakdown which kicks in after a workout) being prolonged. The whey with water alone will be put to use by your body almost immediately. Also take a good multivitamin after each workout session.

They should both be taken every day to see the desired effects. Creatine can be taken at almost any time of the day, I prefer 1 dose in the morning and 1 in the evening.

And always remember to eat 4-6 evenly spaced meals every day. This will keep your insulin levels steady and your energy and mood high! Your protein intake should be 150-200 grams for starters, divided equally among the meals. Aim for about 30 grams of it per meal.

[quijjiboo]

Originally posted by Scrub Ducky
Well I got a big tub of creatine and whey protein.Now can I take the creatine with cranberry juice instead of grape juice?

Also, since I'm going to be taking both the protein and creatine, how should I go about doin it?Like, 1 day protein, 1 day creatine or a little bit of both after a workout?
In the long run the type of juice wouldnt really matter, as long as you take in sufficient amount of carbs, and that they are high glycemic, and quick digesting (grape juice just happens to fit those criteria nicely).
Read this article:
http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/186nutri.html
This is the best advice to follow re taking protein and creatine around your workout.

[$$$$]

I have studied a lot on creatine and Whey since i did some mild Bodybuilding. Anyway Creatine helps super hydrating your muscles. IT causes your body to absorb a lot more water and retain it in the muscles. Probably the secopnd or third day into the loading phase you will notice your urine turn yellow. This is because your body is retaining that water so you need to drink more. If i remember correctly when on creatine and doing any excercises you want to drink 1-1.5 gallons of water a day.

What Whey does is supplies you with the necessary protein to rebuild the muscle tears you created after a workout. IF you dont have enough protein in your body then your body will begin to take away from other parts of your systems functions to rebuild those muscles. Its best to take your protein shake within one hour of the workout. Same with your creatine because after a workout your creatin uptake is increased. Many people recommend just spooning the dose of creatine in your mouth then washing it down with your shake or water. Thats what i do. It will take a while to get used to the chalky taste but its not hard.

Hope this helps

[streetdreamer02]

how manyc ups of water is 1.5 gallon?

[bigbutnottoo]

Originally posted by streetdreamer02
how manyc ups of water is 1.5 gallon?

192 oz, so about 24- Eight Ounce cups

[SLICEDBEEF]

It doesn't matter if you have to choose between protien and steroids... you'll still gain more muscle by taking the protien without the steroids than you would by taking the steroids and no protien... protien is essential to muscle growth because that's what muscles are...PROTIEN.

Definantly go with the protien! and take the creatine as an extra, if you can afford it. ;)

[7 inches+]

What brand of creatine did you get?

It should tell you on the container how to take the creatine, most of the time you have to load up on the stuff the first 4-5 days taking 15-20g a day, then after that you need 5-7g a day. I tried some about 7 years ago, I think it's cheaper now than when I tried it. I loaded up on the stuff like it told me on the container, the tub I bought was just big enough for the loading period, I had some other things come up,so I didn't have the money to buy more of it. When I was on the 4th or 5th day of loading, I was getting some very good pumps while lifting,especially in my arms.

What brand of whey protein did you get?

I just recently started lifting again and been using optimum nutrition 100% whey in chocolate flavor, probably one of the best protein powders on the market. It has 23g of protein in each scoop,also has over 3.5g of glutamine & glutamine precursors and 5g of BCAAs in each scoop. It even taste good with just water, I tried a protein powder in the past and even with mixing it with water in the blender it taste like I was drinking cement. The ON 100% whey is good stuff, highly reccomend the stuff. It tastes gooood :bottumsup Right now I'm trying to lower my bodyfat% without losing muscle, once I get my bodyfat% down lower and start to bulk up, I'm thinking about trying creatine again and seeing what happens.

[SLICEDBEEF]

Check out www.prosourceonline.com

Click on the Prosource brand of supplements in the drop-down window on the right. They have a 1000gram tub of creatine for under 30 bucks and their Whey Protien Isolate is the best tasting and more pure than Whey protien concentrate....the same kind they use in hospital's, with no carb's.

Their's probably protien just as good out there with the same price as long as you find the Whey Isolate...not concentrate.

Good Luck

[bigbutnottoo]

I do recall reading a few studies a couple years back that determined that a "loading phase" really was not that necessary in the long run. If you want to save money,skip the loading phase.

My Favorite creatine is EAs Phosphagen and Favorite Protein is NtroTech by MuscleTech ( I never like their Creatine Cell Tech too much though). Its been a couple years so there may be better stuff out now, not sure.

[penguinsfan]

If your family is prone to kidney stones, it is absolutely essential that you stay hydrated. Drink a glass of water every hour or half-hour. Even if you're not thirsty, force yourself to suck it down. Here's a little tip: Keep an index card or piece of scratch paper in your pocket and take it with you all day. If you're at work or school, take it out where it is visible. Use it to keep a tally of your daily water intake. It is a great way to see it and remind yourself if you slack off and don't get enough water intake.

[wbfootball]

you can take both. If you take creatine, also take Glucosomine, its a joint supplement. Creatine can lead to sore, injured joints. Whey protein is the ultimate protein source, so if you want to supplement at all definitely go with whey. I've been taking whey for a while and it's helped, but I'm going to start taking Creadrive(creatine with taurine)with glucosomine, since my joints have never been good in the first place. Kids on my football team have definitely benefited from creatine, you jus tneed to cycle it right and take it as directed and with lots of water. Drink lots of milk too, its as vitally important as any other supplement.

[quijjiboo]

I do recall reading a few studies a couple years back that determined that a "loading phase" really was not that necessary in the long run. If you want to save money,skip the loading phase.

My Favorite creatine is EAs Phosphagen and Favorite Protein is NtroTech by MuscleTech ( I never like their Creatine Cell Tech too much though). Its been a couple years so there may be better stuff out now, not sure.
True, there was also a study saying that you only need around 3g/day to keep a max level. So take 5g/day and you're good to go.

[bigbutnottoo]

I would not necesarily say Whey is the best for everything. Some other proteins such as cassein (sp?) are slower absorbtion and may be better for some people/situations.

[quijjiboo]

I would not necesarily say Whey is the best for everything. Some other proteins such as cassein (sp?) are slower absorbtion and may be better for some people/situations.
Definitely, a mix of the two is best. Except after your workout, then use only whey.

I saw a study showing how quickly whey is digested, and alot of it is burned up before it can go to use..

[blue1214198203]

take both, just dont take as much creatine as advertised. after a loading phase you can maintain that level of creatine in your muscles by simply taking 5 grams of creatine a day beyond that. and then make sure you drink 8 ounces of water extra everyday for every 5 grams of creatine you are taking.

[Dario]

Definitely, a mix of the two is best. Except after your workout, then use only whey.

I saw a study showing how quickly whey is digested, and alot of it is burned up before it can go to use..
You are correct.

I take a 100% whey shake post-workout and I take a scoop of Isomatrix (best blend on the market) every night before bed.

[penguinsfan]

and then make sure you drink 8 ounces of water extra everyday for every 5 grams of creatine you are taking.

Personally, I would recommend going beyond that. I say a minimum of 16 glasses per day, preferably more like 25-35. Anytime I exercise, I make sure I drink 4-6 glasses per workout and then try to drink at least one glass per hour all through the rest of the day. Then when you factor in drinking water with meals, pills you might be taking, etc., it's really not hard to hit that 25-35 range.

[TheExecutioner]

I dont think we should vs Creatine to protein. Protein is Essential to Body building else your muscles cannot rebuild, efficiently. I think if we were to get the best benefits from these supplements would be to use both. Not one or the other!!

[blue1214198203]

Personally, I would recommend going beyond that. I say a minimum of 16 glasses per day, preferably more like 25-35. Anytime I exercise, I make sure I drink 4-6 glasses per workout and then try to drink at least one glass per hour all through the rest of the day. Then when you factor in drinking water with meals, pills you might be taking, etc., it's really not hard to hit that 25-35 range.

well, i add 8 ounces for every 5 grams to my base gallon of water that i drink every day, so i get what youre saying

[RoidRage526]

I have been working out for about 2 years now. I tried Cell-Tech for a while and didn't really see any good gains. I took a break from suppliments and just worked out normally. Then I tried Nitro-Tech for a while and got great gains very quickly. I took Nitro-Tech for half the time I took Cell-Tech and got 5 times more gains. During the time when I took Cell-Tech my max benchpress went from 250-265 over. During the time when I took Nitro-Tech my max benchpress went from 265-300. Any ideas why I got much better gains with Nitro-Tech?

[bigbutnottoo]

Because Cell tech is overhyped bullshit that I found just bloated me. And NitroTech is the protein, right?

[TomdW]

I have just ordered some whey protein in the UK. It's Promax by Maximuscle ( www.maximuscle.co.uk ). Glad to here that it seems pretty good. I do exercise everyday, 1 day cardio, 1 day weights. Have done so for about three years. Now I am a vegitarian and don't think that I'm getting enough protein in my diet, hence the whey.

[iwant8inches]

This is my take on whether to take creatine or protein...Creatine works period. I've had horrible skin reactions in the past which I have finally beaten now...no acne whatsoever and clear skin again...god it feels good. (I stay away from it obviously)Anyway while creatine does work one should look into the brand of the creatine. Cell Tech I gained a good amount of weight on it and I stacked it with Nitro Tech also. After 3 months I was up 15 lbs or so. Funny thing is I never moved up in weight in terms of lifting. I had the energy to complete my workouts easily, but the one thing I should have done but didn't know about was to lift for power every few months...I was working on hypertrophy at the time apparently but quit after I broke out real bad...With creatine LOTS of water should be drunk. 12 8 oz glasses of water is sufficient IMO plus the water drunk during workouts. If you want to gain use both protein and creatine but be weary of the brand. Some creatines actually all except a few types of creatine uses simple sugars to upload into your system and that really is not the most efficient way available on the market now. And protein powders while they do work need to be used with precision. If you take too much (like say enough for a huge ass bodybuilder type guy who's been at it for years) then you'll store fat quickly and if you don't take enough then what the hell is the point. However, creatine needs to be cycled off and on like say 3 months on 1 month off...and one or two cycles won't do anything for anyone. You'll lose the weight and muscle. Most of the gains people make are srtictly in the form of muscle water, but the way creatine gives people nice gains over time is that the muscles over time adapt and allow for more retention of this muscle water. At least that's what I have always thought.

Creatine is good for energy and if used for a prolonged period will give way to bigger muscles and protein is good for building and sustaining actual muscle. Either way when you are bulking up though you aren't worrying about the way your muscles look right so I say creatine is best to use to get quicker results and is best if you can't really afford to be on both. That's just my opinion though of course.

[9_16]

Creatine isn't something bad. If it was, it would be illegal.
If you want to build muscle, use both.

What I read in Men's Health was that if creatine is taken with whey protein after your work-out, you get really nice results.

[iwant8inches]

It's not so much that it's bad...it's just that it isn't as effective when it comes in that sugar powder shit like in Cell Tech...Plus that kind of creatine needs to be cycled as well. about 3 months on 1 off otherwise you won't get results for your efforts.

[penguinsfan]

Some say the sugar is essential, because you need to spike your blood sugar for it to be effective. I have no idea what to think. I haven't used creatine since 2001.

[iwant8inches]

hmmm..haven't heard that one before as being a positive. You are talking about the glucose levels and the subsequent insulin spike right? It's good for absorption, but I don't understand how some will say that makes it effective thus efficient. Certain people will tell you it is a good thing and then fail to mention that such a spike can cause damage eventually to the pancreas. I think the E-Creatine is the best kind out there right now because more of the creatine gets into the body more efficiently. I can't stand taking supplmements though. It gets too expensive and most people don't have the time or genetics to look as good as we all wish.

[Anony]

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/CreatineMeta-analysis.php

Creatine is a perfectly safe substance as it is created naturally in your muscles anyway. This article has all you need to know

[millionman]

Why did you break out from creatine??? I've read in double blind studies done on MuscleTech and Celltech the results were good, but the interesting finding was in the materials they found andro substrates in the powders. Very interesting that you mention breaking out from using it, which would explain the breakouts, since any increase in test production in some males causes breakouts, most cases causes breakouts but on varying levels.

There is a little known company Beverly International that makes great products. From their multivitamin, protein powders, creatine select, or glutamine select. Best quality on the market. You can stay on creatine year around if you want, it doesn't really matter. The research doesn't point to a need to cycle, as it does not effect hormone secretions and does not directly correlate to anabolism.

[TE Jason Crob]

I only read a couple of posts, so i'm sorry if this was already mentioned

That being said.. I don't how you can put protien versus creatine.... they are both very different things

Protien obvoiulsy helps you rebuild muscle, with out enough of it, you aren't going to rebuild anything, period. So if you are serious about adding extra muscle then protein is essential. You don't need whey protein.. but if you would rather have a glass of water, with powder, than a 5oz stake, then Whey is your best bet.

Creatine- As your muscles are working their are motor units that help contract, the thing that powers the contraction is ATP. Once the ATP has caused a contraction it becomes ADP. You have a certain amount of ATP already made in your body, and you make more when you are working out, but eventually the sources will run out, and thats where creatine comes in, the creatine turns ADP back into ATP. So your muscle can use the ATP and keep on contracting. Your body already has creatine, it makes it naturally in your body, just not a whole lot. So once the creatine runs out, you start to run on lactic acid, and then you are out of energy and you can't do anymore reps.

By taking more creatine you will be able use your muslces longer, and in effect you will have a more complete workout and you will gain more eventually.

So one is not better than the other.. They do different tasks. I think that Protien is essential for people trying to build muscle, while takign creatine is more optional, and it will help your work out, but taking it and laying on your fat ass will not help you build muscle.

There are certain foods like red meat and such that will have creatine sources in them aswell, so thats an option too.

Hope that helped a bit, although, I have a feeling this was already talked about in the 3 pages I didn't read.

[penguinsfan]

hmmm..haven't heard that one before as being a positive. You are talking about the glucose levels and the subsequent insulin spike right? It's good for absorption, but I don't understand how some will say that makes it effective thus efficient. Certain people will tell you it is a good thing and then fail to mention that such a spike can cause damage eventually to the pancreas. I think the E-Creatine is the best kind out there right now because more of the creatine gets into the body more efficiently. I can't stand taking supplmements though. It gets too expensive and most people don't have the time or genetics to look as good as we all wish.

Well, I was looking for pure creatine a couple years ago, without the sugar, while on a carb-cutting diet. A couple nutritional stores told me that the effect would not be nearly as great without the sugar.

[iwant8inches]

Probably not...without the sugar I mean, but creatine ethyl ester is most likely better to take if you want creatine that works for you as efficiently as creatine can.

[iwant8inches]

Why did you break out from creatine??? I've read in double blind studies done on MuscleTech and Celltech the results were good, but the interesting finding was in the materials they found andro substrates in the powders. Very interesting that you mention breaking out from using it, which would explain the breakouts, since any increase in test production in some males causes breakouts, most cases causes breakouts but on varying levels.

There is a little known company Beverly International that makes great products. From their multivitamin, protein powders, creatine select, or glutamine select. Best quality on the market. You can stay on creatine year around if you want, it doesn't really matter. The research doesn't point to a need to cycle, as it does not effect hormone secretions and does not directly correlate to anabolism.

I never had one zit in my life until I took Cell tech and Nitro Tech. It was horrible. I was on both from the fall until December of that year. Then after a few months of being off it with the help of ProActive it went away. Then about a year and a half later I got on GNC's monohydrate creatine in the small individual packets and within 3 weeks I had it about as bad if not worse (because it lasted longer than the previous time...the first time wasn't even like acne it was like boils or something they were so dark and huge...like bubbles or something...I was scared). So while I can't say it is because of creatine for certain I never had one zit or skin problem before I tried it and while I was off it my skin was nice and clear and then when I tried it again I broke out again. The first time was when I was 16 and the next time I was 18. I don't have it anymore thank goodness...after a year of seeing a dermatologist. Now everything is cool, but I know if I tried creatine again...boom.

[millionman]

I've never heard of anything like that before. Since creatine doesn't affect your hormonal secretions I don't understand why it would cause you to break out. That's interesting. It may have something to do with an increase in hormone production due to greater force output or more productive training sessions. At the same time you could be alergic to it. I have a friend of mine who is allergic to peanuts and he breaks out throughly if he eats anything with peanuts or peanut oil.

[TE Jason Crob]

creatine does a lot more in your body than just the muscle aspect.

Its everywhere

so I almost wouldn't be suprised about the break out, all though I have never heard of it.

[iwant8inches]

I've never heard of anything like that before. Since creatine doesn't affect your hormonal secretions I don't understand why it would cause you to break out. That's interesting. It may have something to do with an increase in hormone production due to greater force output or more productive training sessions. At the same time you could be alergic to it. I have a friend of mine who is allergic to peanuts and he breaks out throughly if he eats anything with peanuts or peanut oil.


yeah I don't know either...I'm supposed to see my dermatologist this coming friday and I'll ask her exactly what she thinks was the cause of all what I had...it's all gone now ...I can't even believe the improvement. She never did really tell me what I had...I never really asked I was just desparate for a solution rather than an explanation...like I said though I don't condemn the product altogether...it works...I just am not going to use it anymore...

[wdis3]

From what I have read,

Creatine is supposed to give you energy and extra strength to lift harder and it also aids in faster muscle healing.

weight gainer proteins are basically a bunch of proteins bundled into high calorie shakes that substitute meals because in order to gain weight you need to eat eat and eat more and food is expensive if you eat a medium sized meal 6 times a day and not many people have the appetite to do so, esp. me.

[ggogeta]

Most of the gains people make are srtictly in the form of muscle water, but the way creatine gives people nice gains over time is that the muscles over time adapt and allow for more retention of this muscle water. At least that's what I have always thought.

People, you are over complicating things here...

Creatine gives the muscle the extra energy. It's made naturally in your body and you even eat it in your favorite steak.

Now, if you take more, the more the energy right? ( up to a maximum value of course)

So if you have more energy, that means you not necessarly lift more weight, but you can workout longer, or at least have shorter rest time between the exercices. That means you can do more in less time. that's GREAT.

So can someone explain how is this logical to say that you will LOOSE your gain when stopping creatine?? creatine lets you workout harder, straining your muscle harder ( which is a good thing, more micro fissures to heal, meaning more protein needed, meaning, bigger/stronger muscle)

If you can work out the gym harder, that means you will get greater results in less time. If you lifted 10 lbs at benchpress instead of your maximum capacity of, say, 150 lbs, you would not gain much I'm I right... Now with creatine you can continue to lift 150 lbs, but for more reps, with less restbetween each rest.

You all know that.

How the hell stopping creatine will LOWER your current muscle mass... water , yes, but not the muscles. They do not depend on creatine to keep alive.

Creatine will help grow more muscle on the same workout by letting you do more reps, which is destroying your muscle, which is good :s


P.S.You all know that training your muscle means to micro fissure them in order to fit in those fissures some new muscle cell, which makes the muscle bigger after.

[pullups]

wow we got the master of reviving dead threads....anyway you cannot compare whey and creatine....Whey is literally essential. Without it your body will eat at your muscles. Creatine is a choice, bad choice at that. Creatine will give you 1 to 2 more reps thats it. Protein whey is the whey to go lol

[ggogeta]

wow we got the master of reviving dead threads....anyway you cannot compare whey and creatine....Whey is literally essential. Without it your body will eat at your muscles. Creatine is a choice, bad choice at that. Creatine will give you 1 to 2 more reps thats it. Protein whey is the whey to go lol

wow we've got the master at telling jokes ... anyways blame it on REDZULU2003, for indexing all the good threads on 1 sticky thread. :)

Some old threads are still good :s

[sikdogg]

...How the hell stopping creatine will LOWER your current muscle mass... water , yes, but not the muscles. They do not depend on creatine to keep alive...
You have a very rudimentary understanding of anabolism and muscle hypertrophy... but to answer you question, gains from creatine is mostly from intra-cellular water gain (water within the muscle). This is not the same as bloat, which water outside the muscle. Once you stop taking creatine, you lose that ability to carry so much intra-cellular water and lose size.

[ggogeta]

Well, first of all, thanks for letting me know I have poor knowledge on the subject. rofl

Now, what I meant is that , knowing that you do lose water (and weight), the additional strenght you gain from training harder (when on creatine) will not be lost. Sure it will drop a little, when the creatines depletes, but you will still be stronger than before.

And sorry for the last post, I think it was looking quite arrogant :s

[sikdogg]

Again, you're not getting it... the additional water is what causes the strength gain. When the water goes away, so does the strength. This is similar to how a steroid like dbol works, you gain lots of water weight and strength goes up accordingly. When you stop the dbol, the water goes away and so does the strength.

[ggogeta]

Again, you're not getting it... the additional water is what causes the strength gain. When the water goes away, so does the strength. This is similar to how a steroid like dbol works, you gain lots of water weight and strength goes up accordingly. When you stop the dbol, the water goes away and so does the strength.

while you're on creatine, you can train harder, thanks to it's magic :s
Now you strain the muscle harder, get more micro fissures so they are forced to heal more of those.

Up to now i'm I right?

If so, the body then heals the micro fissures, which is basically how a muscle grows.

Creatine makes more micro fissures, body heals them, bigger/stronger (depends) muscle.

unfortunately you loose all the strenght from creatine itself, but you keep the xtra strain you were able to put on your muscle.

Strain is what you are searching for by lifting heavy weights :O

[pullups]

lol love the sarcasam...creatine in my mind is a flat out waist of time. But that is a very biased view, never actually used it. All I know is what my human physiology teacher told our class about it.

[sikdogg]

while you're on creatine, you can train harder, thanks to it's magic :s
Now you strain the muscle harder, get more micro fissures so they are forced to heal more of those.

Up to now i'm I right?

If so, the body then heals the micro fissures, which is basically how a muscle grows.

Creatine makes more micro fissures, body heals them, bigger/stronger (depends) muscle.

unfortunately you loose all the strenght from creatine itself, but you keep the xtra strain you were able to put on your muscle.

Strain is what you are searching for by lifting heavy weights :O
The thing is that the stregnth gains from water (creatine) is greater than from normal damage/heal process so when you first lose the water you will notice a loss of strength even though you may be stronger than when you first started.

[sikdogg]

Here's a good explanation of how mescles grow from training...


Muscular Growth: How Does A Muscle Grow?

Let's get right into this and start with a segment from the Neuromuscular System series:

Muscle biopsies of serious weight trainers have shown that it was the size of the individual fibers within their muscles that was responsible for the abnormal muscle size and not the actual number of muscle fibers present.

...although extreme conditions may result in modest hyperplasia. This tells us that the formation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) is, at most, likely to be only a minor factor in increasing muscle size. The mechanism responsible for supercompensation is hypertrophy - the increase in size of existing muscle fibers.

Taking another segment from the Neuromuscular System series:

It is also worthy of note that contractile machinery comprises about 80% of muscle fiber volume. The rest of the volume is accounted for by tissue that supplies energy to the muscle or is involved with the neural drive.

This tells us that there are a couple of ways to increase muscle size.

Increase the volume of the tissue that supplies energy to the muscle or is involved with the neural drive - called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
Increase the volume of contractile machinery - called sarcomere hypertrophy.

Let's take a look at both routes.
Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy
Increasing the volume of the tissue that supplies energy to the muscle or is involved with the neural drive: Intimately involved in the production of ATP are intracellular bodies called "mitochondria". Muscle fibers will adapt to high volume (and higher rep) training sessions by increasing the number of mitochondria in the cells. They will also increase the concentrations of the enzymes involved in the oxidative phosphorylation and anaerobic glycolysis mechanisms of energy production and increase the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid inside the cell (including glycogen) and also the fluid between the actual cells. This type of hypertrophy produces very little in the way of added strength but has profound effects on increasing strength-endurance (the ability to do reps with a certain weight) because it dramatically increases the muscles' ability to produce ATP. Adaptations of this sort are characteristic of Bodybuilders' muscles.

It should also be obvious that as the volume of the tissue that supplies energy to the muscle represents only around 20% of the total muscle cell volume in untrained individuals, this isn't where the real size potential lies.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy of muscle cells does directly produce moderate increases in size . But also, as you'll know from the Neuromuscular System series, ATP is the source of energy for all muscular contraction - type II fibers included. Wouldn't having more of this in the muscle, and having the ability to produce greater intramuscular quantities at any one time, be an asset? The answer is, cleary, "yes". That's where a major portion of the importance of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy comes into Bodybuilding. (We'll deal with training to produce this type of adaptation in an article on the 'Training Related Articles' page.)

As for increasing the tissue that is involved with the neural drive, this would theoretically occur in response to the need for contracting cells with hypertrophied contractile machinery. Directly, it would produce very little in the way of added size.

In addition, there are other intracellular bodies who's growth and/or proliferation would fall under the category of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. These would be organelles such as the "ribosomes", which are involved in protein synthesis. As in the case of neural drive machinery, in most cases they would increase in size or number only to support sarcomere hypertrophy. They would have little direct impact on overall muscle size.

Sarcomere Hypertrophy
Increasing the volume of contractile machinery: The vast majority of the volume of each muscle cell (~80%) is made up of contractile machinery. Therefore, there lies the greatest potential for increasing muscle cell size. Trained muscle responds by increasing the number of actin/myosin filaments (sarcomeres) that it contains - this is what is responsible for increased strength and size. But before a muscle will grow like this it has to be "broken down". Let's take a look at both the "breaking down" and "building up" processes:

The Process Of Exercise-Induced Muscle Cell Damage
Actin/myosin filaments sustain "damage" during high-tension contractions. In addition, breaches in plasma membrane integrity allow calcium to leak into the muscle cells after training (there is much more calcium in the blood than in the muscle cells). This intracellular increase in calcium levels activates enzymes called "calpains" which "break off" pieces of the damaged contractile filaments (called "easily releasable myofilaments"). Following this, a protein called "ubiquitin" (which is present in all muscle cells) binds to the removed pieces of filaments thus "identifying" them for destructive purposes. At this time, neutrophils (a type of granular white blood cell that is highly destructive) are chemically attracted to the area and rapidly increase in number. They release toxins, including oxygen radicals, which increase membrane permeability and phagocytize (ingest and "destroy") the tissue debris that the calcium-mediated pathways released. Neutrophils don't remain around more than a day or two, but are complimented by the appearance of monocytes also attracted to the damaged area. Monocytes (a type of phagocytic cell) enter the damaged muscle and form into macrophages (another phagocytic cell) that also release toxins and phagocytize damaged tissue. Once the phagocytic stage commences, the damaged fibers are rapidly broken down by lysosomal proteases, free O2 radicals, and other substances produced by macrophages. As you can tell, the muscle is now in a weaker state than before it was trained. Incidently, macrophages have an essential role in initiating tissue repair. Unless damaged muscle is invaded by macrophages, activation of satellite cells and muscle repair does not occur.

Also, increased intracellular Ca++ concentrations are known to activate an enzyme called phospholipase A2. This enzyme releases arachidonic acid from the plasma membrane which is then formed into prostaglandins (primarily PGE2) and other eicosanoids that contribute to the degradative processes.

So, now that we've seen how the muscle gets damaged, how does it grow?

The Process Of Exercise-Induced Muscle Growth
It was mentioned in the The Neuromuscular System Part I: What A Weight Trainer Needs To Know About Muscle article that muscle cells have many nuclei and other intracellular organelles. This is because nuclei are intimately involved in the protein synthesis process (don't forget, actin and myosin are proteins), and a single nuclei can only support so much protein. If muscle cells didn't have multiple nuclei they would be very small muscle cells indeed. So if a muscle is to grow beyond its current size (i.e. synthesize contractile proteins - actin and myosin) it has to increase the number of nuclei that it has (called the "myonuclei number"). How does it do this? Well, around the muscle cells are "myogenic stem cells" called "satellite cells" (or "myoblasts"). Under the right conditions these cells become more "like" muscle cells and actually donate their nuclei to the muscle fibers (very nice of them). For this to happen, to any degree, several things need to take place. One, the number of satellite cells has to increase (called "proliferation"). Two, they have to become more "like" muscle cells (called "differentiation"). And three, they have to fuse with the needy muscle cells.

When the sarcolemma (the muscle cell wall) is "damaged" by tension (as in weight training or even stretching) growth factors are produced and released in the cell. There are several different types of growth factors. The most significant are:

Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1)
Fibroblast Growth Factor (FGF)
Transforming Growth Factor -Beta Superfamily (TGF-beta)

These growth factors can then leave the cell and go out into the surrounding area because sarcolemma permeabilty has been increased due to the "damage" done during contraction. Once outside the muscle cell these growth factors cause the satellite cells to proliferate (mainly FGF does this) and differentiate (mainly IGF-1 does this). TGF-beta actually inhibits growth - but everything can't be perfect. After this process the satellite cells then fuse with the muscle cells and donate their nuclei. The muscle cell can now grow.

So now factors that promote protein synthesis such as IGF-1, growth hormone (GH), testosterone and some prostaglandins can go to work. How does that all happen? Read on...

Protein synthesis occurs because a genetically-coded subtsance called "messenger RNA" (mRNA) is sent out from the nucleus and goes to organelles called "ribosomes". The mRNA contains the "instructions" for the ribosomes to synthesize proteins, and so the process of constructing contractile (actin and myosin) and structural proteins (for the other components of the cell) from the amino acids taken into the cell from the bloodstream is set off. Several substances can influence this process. A short overview of the major ones are found below:

IGF-1: IGF-1 comes in two varieties - actually, they are both the same molecule but come from different places. paracrine IGF-1 (also called "systemic" IGF-1) is made primarily in the liver and autocrine IGF-1 (also called "local" IGF-1) is made locally in other cells (it's called "local" IGF-1 because it isn't released in large quantities into the bloodstream - it stays in the area in which it was made). Cells don't let systemic IGF-1 in unless they want to (there are "picky" receptors on the cell wall) but the IGF-1 that was manufactured and released in the muscle cell as a response to the high tension contractions can do it's thing because it's already inside. So, once in the cell, IGF-1 interacts with calcium-activated enzymes and sets off a process that results in protein synthesis (and the calcium ions that were released during muscle contraction and also the ones that leak into the muscle after the sarcolemma is damaged by training ensure that the necessary enzymes are activated). A large part of this increase in protein synthesis rate is due to the fact that the IGF-1/calcium/enzyme complexes make protein synthesis at the ribosomes more efficient.
By the way, insulin works at the ribosome in a similar manner, hence the name insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1). So get some quick digesting carbs in after your workout to raise insulin levels.

GH is thought to work, primarily, by causing the cells (muscle cells included) to release IGF-1.

Certain prostaglandins are released during contraction (and stretch); two of the most significant to growth being PGE2 and PGF2-alpha. PGE2 increases protein degradation, whereas PGF2-alpha increases protein synthesis. But PGE2 isn't all bad because it also powerfully induces satellite cell proliferation and infusion. The mechanism of PGF2-alpha's action is much less clear but is suspected to be connected to increasing protein synthesis 'efficiency' at the ribosomes also.

And the Granddaddy of them all: testosterone. "Free" testosterone (the kind that isn't bound to some other substance) travels freely across the muscle cell membrane and, once inside, activates what's called the "androgen receptor". "Bound" testosterone must first activate receptors on the cell surface before it can enter (the number of receptors on the surface is what controls this pathway). Once the androgen receptor is activated by testosterone it travels to the nucleus and sets off the protein synthesis process. In this way, testosterone directly causes protein synthesis and is, by far, the most powerful anabolic agent found naturally in the human body. Testosterone also increases the satellite cells' sensitivity to IGF-1 and FGF, thereby promoting satellite cell proliferation and differentiation. It also increases the body's systemic output of GH and IGF-1.

And, guess what, after a workout the muscle cells are more "receptive" to testosterone, systemic IGF-1 and GH - it's almost as if the muscle "knows" that it needs to grow.

In addition, there have also been some studies showing that the build-up of phosphates and hydrogen ions, that occurs as a muscle fatigues (see the Failure Muscular Fatigue During Weight Training article), may also contribute (directly or indirectly) to the growth process. The reasons, as of yet, are unknown.

The whole process of cellular damage and subsequent overcompensation (the cells grow back a little bigger than they were before) can take anywhere in the neighbourhood of 24 hours to several days - depending on the severity and type of training.

And You Though It Was Magic

Learn anything useful? Even if you don't realize it you probably did. Knowing the process can be an extremely useful tool when designing training programs.

Sources

Adams GR, McCue SA, Local infusion of IGF-1 results in skeletal muscle hypertrophy in rats. J. Appl. Physiol., 1998; 84(5): 1716-1722

Brooks, G.A., T.D. Fahey, T.P. White, and K.M. Baldwin. (2000). Exercise Physiology: Human Bioenergetics and Its Applications. Mountain View, CA: Mayfield Publishing.

Dunn SE, Burns JL, Michel RN. Calcineurin is required for skeletal muscle hypertrophy. J. Biol. Chem., 1999; 274(31):21908-21912.

Palmer RM. Prostaglandins and the control of muscle protein synthesis and degradation. Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids, 1990 Feb; 39(2):95-104

Robert K., Md Murray, et al. (1999). Harper's Biochemistry. McGraw-Hill Professional Publishing

Rooney KJ, Herbert RD, Balnave RJ. Fatigue contributes to the strength training stimulus. Med Sci Sports Exerc, 1994 Sep; 26(9):1160-4.

Rosenblatt JD, Yong D, Parry DJ, Satellite cell activity is required for hypertrophy of overloaded adult rat muscle. Muscle Nerve, 1994; 17:608-613.

Rosner W, Hryb DJ, Khan MS, et al. Androgens, estrogens, and second messengers. Steroids, 1998; 63:278-281.

Schott J. McCully K. Rutherford O.M. The role of metabolites in strength training. Eur-J-Appl-Physiol., 1995 71(4) P 337.

Spagnoli A, Rosenfeld RG. The mechanisms by which growth hormone brings about growth. The relative contributions of growth hormone and insulin-like growth factors. Endocrinol Metab Clin North Am, 1996 Sep; 25(3):615-31.

Thompson MG, Palmer RM. Signaling pathways regulating protein turnover in skeletal muscle. Cell Signal. 1998 Jan; 10(1):1-11.

Thompson SH, Boxhorn LK, Kong W, and Allen RE. Trenbolone alters the responsiveness of skeletal muscle satellite cells to fibroblast growth factor and insulin-like growth factor-I. Endocrinology, 1989, 124:2110-2117.

Vandenburgh HH, Shansky J, Solerssi R, Chromiak J. Mechanical stimulation of skeletal muscle increases prostaglandin F2 alpha production, cyclooxygenase activity, and cell growth by a pertussis toxin sensitive mechanism. J Cell Physiol, 1995 May; 163(2):285-94

[sikdogg]

lol love the sarcasam...creatine in my mind is a flat out waist of time. But that is a very biased view, never actually used it. All I know is what my human physiology teacher told our class about it.
Since you've never tried it, your opinion is worthless. If you at least tried it and was a non-responder you would have merit.

What exactly did your teacher say about it because there are lots of studies on it.

[pullups]

Since you've never tried it, your opinion is worthless. If you at least tried it and was a non-responder you would have merit.

What exactly did your teacher say about it because there are lots of studies on it.

Acctually since i havent tried it, my opinion is very valid...because if i did there is a chance that i could be biased, but since i never have tried it (meaning never benefited or did benefit from it) my opinion comes purely from what i have been taught by an accomplished proffessor at a prestigious university. He said the gains are temporary, that it only helps you w/in the first 30 to 60 seconds (or sumting like that i took it two semesters ago), and many times the gains can come from a placebo effect.

[pullups]

on a positive note, there has been studies done that show creatine might help in concentration and intelligence....i can prolly get a link

[sikdogg]

Acctually since i havent tried it, my opinion is very valid...because if i did there is a chance that i could be biased, but since i never have tried it (meaning never benefited or did benefit from it) my opinion comes purely from what i have been taught by an accomplished proffessor at a prestigious university. He said the gains are temporary, that it only helps you w/in the first 30 to 60 seconds (or sumting like that i took it two semesters ago), and many times the gains can come from a placebo effect.
I disagree... Since you've never used it, your opinions are based on hearsay and not necessarily on personal observation or scientific fact. There are alot of studies that go back and forth, some say it's great and others say it's so-so. I believe that this comes from the fact that not all people are creatine responders...

Acute creatine monohydrate supplementation: a descriptive physiological profile of responders vs. nonresponders.

Syrotuik DG, Bell GJ.

Faculty of Physical Education and Recreation, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada. Syrotuik@ualberta.ca

The purpose of this study was to describe the physiological profile of responders (>20 mmol.kg(-1) dry weight [dw] increase in total intramuscular creatine monohydrate [Cr] + phosphorylated creatine [PCr]) versus nonresponders (<10 mmol.kg(-1) dw increase) to a 5-day Cr load (0.3 g.kg(-1).d(-1)) in 11 healthy men (mean age = 22.7 years). Pre-post 5-day cellular measures included total resting Cr content (Cr + PCr), fiber type composition, and fiber type cross-sectional area (CSA) determined from muscle biopsies of the vastus lateralis. Body mass, daily dietary intake, 24-hour urine outputs, urinary Cr and creatinine (CrN), and strength performance measures (1 repetition maximum [1RM] bench and leg press) were also assessed before and after the 5-day loading period. Results indicated that there were 3 levels of response to the 5-day supplementation: responders (R), quasi responders (QR), and nonresponders (NR) with mean changes in resting Cr + PCr of 29.5 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 3), 14.9 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 5), and 5.1 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 3), respectively. The results support a person-by-treatment interaction to acute Cr supplementation with R possessing a biological profile of lowest initial levels of Cr + PCr, greatest percentage of type II fibers, and greatest preload muscle fiber CSA and fat-free mass. Responders also showed improvement in 1RM leg press scores following the 5-day loading period. NR had higher preload levels of Cr + PCr, less type II muscle fibers, small preload muscle CSA, and lower fat-free mass and displayed no improvements in 1RM strength scores. The results suggest that to be considered a responder to acute oral supplementation, a favorable preexisting biological profile may determine the final extent to which an individual responds to supplementation. Physiologic profiles of nonresponders appear to be different and may limit their ability to uptake Cr. This may help partially explain the reported equivocal performance findings in the Cr supplementation literature.

If you at least tried it and was a non-responder, you could say it sucks and your opinion would be totally valid since you had lousy results. But since you've never tried it, your opinion is based on nothing more than bro-telligence.

[pullups]

I disagree... Since you've never used it, your opinions are based on hearsay and not necessarily on personal observation or scientific fact. There are alot of studies that go back and forth, some say it's great and others say it's so-so. I believe that this comes from the fact that not all people are creatine responders...


If you at least tried it and was a non-responder, you could say it sucks and your opinion would be totally valid since you had lousy results. But since you've never tried it, your opinion is based on nothing more than bro-telligence.

how is my opinion based on hearsay? it is based on scientific fact, he has a doctorate in human physiology, his name is Dr. Whim from penn state university. so in all honesty my opinion is a shit load less bias then yours.

[sikdogg]

how is my opinion based on hearsay? it is based on scientific fact, he has a doctorate in human physiology, his name is Dr. Whim from penn state university. so in all honesty my opinion is a shit load less bias then yours.
Hearsay is hearing a fact or information from someone else... Since you only know what you know becasue of what your professor told you, it is hearsay regardless of what his background is. If on the other hand you read the research material first hand then it isn't hearsay. Post the study where he got the info from, i'd be interested in reading it... I can post studies all day long on creatine both supporting it and against it but if you read the study that i posted in my previous post, it's hard to get real info on creatine's effectiveness if you don't know if you're a responder or not. My personal experience with it makes me believe that i'm definitly a responder, i know of other that are definitely non-responders. In either case, we can support either claim from personal experience supported by clinical studies. You don't know if you are nor do you have the study so your opinion is totally unsubstantiated.

[oliver]

Which one of these helps to build bulky muscle faster?

Some info about me.I know some of this is important if your gonna take creatine...
I'm young...18
My family DOES have a history of kidney stones/problems
I have a very high metabolism

Thank you very much :)

Hey is funny you should mention this, I dont know about muscle mass, but I started drinking whey protien has a meal replacement for my www.skinnyguy.net
program, and its been about 10 days so far I've managed to put on 3 lbs, so I know whatever I'm doing is working, I lift only 3 times a week, and eat 6 times a day. I just wanted to let you know Im not using creatine and it looks like the whey protien is doing its work.

[ggogeta]

Yeah that's for sure, protein is THE supplement ,along with multi vitamins.

I'll try to read that study of yours sikdogg... :)

[ggogeta]

So, now that we've seen how the muscle gets damaged, how does it grow?

If you can lift more than your current limit, with the help of creatine of course, then you are damaging your muscles a bit more than you would without.

If that is right, then the muscle has no choice but to repair. therefore, a more damaged muscle will get stronger.

Now that resumes my point. If you could tell me where I'm wrong at this point, that would be great, since that seems to never end, and well... you seem to have read quite some more articles than me!

See ya!

[swolejah]

I don't take creatine anymore. Bloated the heck out of me and it just added water weight. Vitargo CGL made me gain a lot of water weight also...

For best effect try CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester).

[LambdaCalc]

Has anybody tried the proteins from t-nation? Grow/Metabolic Drive

I've used GNC and Optimum in the past. Both seemed pretty good.

[9cyclops9]

Has anybody tried the proteins from t-nation? Grow/Metabolic Drive

Delicious stuff. A little pricey, but worth it IMO. It's much higher quality than pretty much anything else you can get. And for a meal replacement, you can't beat the combo of whey isolate and micellar casein.

[LambdaCalc]

Thanks for the info.

So, if you combine whey and micellar casein how do you separate the servings? Would you take a scoop of each with each shake, or do one type in the early part of the day and one type in the later part of the day?

[prince Albert]

Delicious stuff. A little pricey, but worth it IMO. It's much higher quality than pretty much anything else you can get. And for a meal replacement, you can't beat the combo of whey isolate and micellar casein.

Why do you think its worth paying the extra for a protien supplement there all pretty much the same regardless of hype,if youv'e got extra cash to spend buy real solid food.

[pullups]

yea why would you combine casein and whey? Whey is a fast dissovling protein while casein is slow. Try caseins and ANPB (all natural peanut butter)

[pullups]

O snap i forgot add OATS!! good insoluble fiber (so you feel full), and good carbs and protein.

[AlreadyPackin']

Your body will use up the whey pretty quickly, so some believe the casein/whey combo gets your muscles a constant supply of protein, since the casein is not absorbed as quickly.
I have used creatine, and I didn't notice very much of a difference. But some people I know got great results with it. Depends on you, since we're all different. I may try it again soon, just to see if I get better results. I don't carry much water weight, so maybe that made a difference.

[Formysweetie]

I dont think we should vs Creatine to protein. Protein is Essential to Body building else your muscles cannot rebuild, efficiently. I think if we were to get the best benefits from these supplements would be to use both. Not one or the other!!

I agree. Dr. David Williams also recommends taking some creatine every day. It's good for you, whether or not you work out. As for creatine causing joint problems, it doesn't. Some guys just injure their joints and blame it on the creatine. As far as drinking lots and lots of water-- well, that depends on each individual, how much creatine they are taking, etc. And usually when creatine is taken, so also are other powders, like whey and all the stuff they add to that.

I've been taking creatrine for some time, now, and feel fine. Have also lost 1" around the waist and gained it elsewhere, but I don't really get a serious workout. I just have a bowflex, and might take 30 minutes, about 3 times/week.

[9cyclops9]

Why do you think its worth paying the extra for a protien supplement there all pretty much the same regardless of hype,if youv'e got extra cash to spend buy real solid food.

Haven't we been through this one before?

I don't always have time to sit down and have a solid meal. Some protein powder and flax seeds provides a good alternative when, for example, I have 6 hours of class straight. I can't exactly bring chicken and a salad. Also, protein powder is cheaper per gram of protein than solid food so it's an easy way to get the extra amount I need.

Pretty much the same? I don't think so. But like many things, we can disagree with each other here too.

[ggogeta]

It takes 30 sec to drink a shake after a gym workout, but give fast digesting protein so your body can use it right away, were it needs it.

Whey is just a great helper. If you allready can afford to eat well (I think about anyone with an internet connection can manage to do this) and is wealthy enough to buy whey, they should IMO. Sure if you arnt training at all, you'll get some fat huh, plz don't be stupid there :P.

[pullups]

if your gonna have a MRP shake you should use casein instead of whey. Digest slower.

[prince Albert]

Haven't we been through this one before?

I don't always have time to sit down and have a solid meal. Some protein powder and flax seeds provides a good alternative when, for example, I have 6 hours of class straight. I can't exactly bring chicken and a salad. Also, protein powder is cheaper per gram of protein than solid food so it's an easy way to get the extra amount I need.

Pretty much the same? I don't think so. But like many things, we can disagree with each other here too.

I wasn't asking why use a protien shake i get through 4 a day myself,i was asking why you think its worth paying the extra for that particular brand as you said its a little pricey but worth it IMO,how much higher quality is it?

[9cyclops9]

I wasn't asking why use a protien shake i get through 4 a day myself,i was asking why you think its worth paying the extra for that particular brand as you said its a little pricey but worth it IMO,how much higher quality is it?

Oh. I must have been thinking about someone else. My bad.

For me, it's worth the price because of the taste and because it has a lot micellar casein. Micellar casein is slower than calcium caseinate or other slow proteins so I feel full longer.

If more of my meals were shakes, I'd probably use something else due to the price, however. But most of my meals are solid food unless I've got something getting in the way, like long hours at class or in the lab, so I really don't use a whole lot.

[DWTS00]

I agree. Dr. David Williams also recommends taking some creatine every day. It's good for you, whether or not you work out. As for creatine causing joint problems, it doesn't. Some guys just injure their joints and blame it on the creatine. As far as drinking lots and lots of water-- well, that depends on each individual, how much creatine they are taking, etc. And usually when creatine is taken, so also are other powders, like whey and all the stuff they add to that.

I've been taking creatrine for some time, now, and feel fine. Have also lost 1" around the waist and gained it elsewhere, but I don't really get a serious workout. I just have a bowflex, and might take 30 minutes, about 3 times/week.

Its wrong to say its from the creatine if nething creatine monohydrate causes water retention...if u were taking CEE maybe but it wasnt from the creatine is was from the bowflex and better eating habbits

as for the original question these are 2 different things none of them "build" bulky muscle they only aid in building muscle IMO buy the whey drop the creatine I took up to 20-30grams a day straight for 1.5 months and noticed nothing I took atp,creatine atp and mono with all the things like taurine ,dextrose, ALA etc... the one thing I might give a try is Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) this is supposed to work for people like me who havent seen results from regular creatine

if u can only buy 1 go for the whey it has many benefits

[Formysweetie]

the one thing I might give a try is Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) this is supposed to work for people like me who havent seen results from regular creatine

if u can only buy 1 go for the whey it has many benefits

OK, good point! There are different kinds of creatine, and different kinds work differently for different body types.

[AlreadyPackin']

I'm thinking about trying the CEE myself, since monohydrate didn't do anything for me. But I don't know. I'm doing well right now just eating lots o' good food. If I flatten out, I'll probly go for it.

[DWTS00]

I'm thinking about trying the CEE myself, since monohydrate didn't do anything for me. But I don't know. I'm doing well right now just eating lots o' good food. If I flatten out, I'll probly go for it.

Lots of people swear by CEE even people like us who havent seen any improvement from taking regular creatine and in my case for 1.5 months approx taking 20-30grams with Dex.

If your cutting I wouldnt suggest you take it, but after ur done cutting or if ur bulking now adding CEE should help a bit according to them

also Add some vasidolaters(sp?) and NOX2 people swear by those for increased pump and feeling like you can lift anything in the gym you know that pumped up feeling where everything seems lighter???

[prince Albert]

Oh. I must have been thinking about someone else. My bad.

For me, it's worth the price because of the taste and because it has a lot micellar casein. Micellar casein is slower than calcium caseinate or other slow proteins so I feel full longer.

If more of my meals were shakes, I'd probably use something else due to the price, however. But most of my meals are solid food unless I've got something getting in the way, like long hours at class or in the lab, so I really don't use a whole lot.

Ok i see.

[swolejah]

I'm thinking about trying the CEE myself, since monohydrate didn't do anything for me. But I don't know. I'm doing well right now just eating lots o' good food. If I flatten out, I'll probly go for it.

Sounds good. Get some here http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=1533

[swolejah]

also Add some vasidolaters(sp?) and NOX2 people swear by those for increased pump and feeling like you can lift anything in the gym you know that pumped up feeling where everything seems lighter???

The best feedback I have ever seen was using the BSN stack. Using all 3 is okay, but I have heard from others who have experience with the stack mention that you only need the Cell-Mass and NO-Xplode, whereas the Nitrix is not necessary.

[swolejah]

Can't edit my post, sorry...

Forgot to say that most that I have heard from say the stack only works well while your on it and some dudes have noticeable changes, but once you stop taking it your back to the norm.

[ggogeta]

But while ur taking it, you are training harder, which means bigger results at the end. What your friend meant is that since you stop those supplements, their effect will stop.

[against_odds21]

I haven't take any protein whey before, but I have creatine and it helped me bulk up a little, but I just stopped using it.

I am intersted in starting protein whey. There is a GNC close.

Is this one alright? http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2133619&cp=2167077.2108319.2108294&parentPage=family

And you just have a shake after lifting? Do you have one after a cardio workout as well? No flames please. IDK. :P

[LambdaCalc]

I'm not an expert on protein, but it tastes great, mixes easy and delivers 20 grams of protein per serving.

[ggogeta]

I haven't take any protein whey before, but I have creatine and it helped me bulk up a little, but I just stopped using it.

I am intersted in starting protein whey. There is a GNC close.

Is this one alright? http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2133619&cp=2167077.2108319.2108294&parentPage=family

And you just have a shake after lifting? Do you have one after a cardio workout as well? No flames please. IDK. :P

Check out this article... a bit lenghty, but it will explain quite everything you want about protein.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satternorton.htm

I know the title isnt telling it will answer your question, but it does :)