Is Tom Brady the best Q.B. in N.F.L. history?

Discuss.

No I AM

I'm not a huge Pats fan (in fact I sortof hate them though I admire their accomplishments), but I'd say yes.

The win/loss ratio, not to mention the huge win streaks, over the last few years, the soon-to-be perfect season this year, all the championships, the consistently high rating and lack of interceptions, all these things can't really be argued against. Also keep in mind that all of this is being done against the most vicious, athletic, and well-studied defenses in league history. The old greats like Namath and Marino didn't face defenses with the speed and savvy of today's teams, so Brady is essentially compiling the most impressive record in history against the most challenging situations.

He's also accomplished all this at a pretty young age, which says something. Some detractors will argue that having a mastermind coach and a well-financed team that can afford to surround him with top-flight players are big factors, but I don't really buy that. Brady has often had a pretty week receiving core over the years, and the Patriots tend to win more or less based on Brady's performance, not lights-out defense or through the efforts of a bruising rusher. In the past they've gotten by with journeymen backs and a modestly talented set of skill players with maybe one standout. A lot of quarterbacks did a lot less with a lot better teams.

So far as the coaching, it's good, but he can't go out there and throw the ball and make the play-time decisions that Brady does every weekend. It helps, sure, but in terms of their status relative to their peers, Brady is probably the best quaterback in history where as Belichick isn't widely considered to be the greatest overall coach by any means. History will perhaps see him as a top 10 coach, but his success is more wrapped up in Brady's genius than the reverse scenario.

The last piece part of the argument is that basically all of the other great quarterbacks and commentators, including Dan Marino, have said that Brady is now undeniably the best that has ever played the position. This season cemented his status, which was already a valid assertion, and there's no evidence to show that he's slowing down anytime soon unless he suffers a major injury to his throwing arm, neck, etc. So yeah, the guys is pretty good.

Fuck no, he's a lucky SOB that's what he is, perhaps luckier than any other QB ever..........if it weren't for the "tuck rule", he woulda always been known as the guy who blew it, woulda been a lot harder for him to live that down, not to mention it would have been one less ring. Also, ever since then he's had some *GREAT* O-lines and teams in general, not many other teams have been so successful at this.

So I take it you're a member of the Raider Nation.

Anyway, I'd say that arguing that he was able to take advantage of a legitimate rule in one playoff game has very little to do with his greater legacy. Lots of QBs have rings - Brady is steering the first truly perfect season, and this after they already ran for something like a 22 game streak a ways back - that plus the campionships and passer rating over time has no real equal that I know of in the game.

Also, he has had good O-lines, but not the greatest O-lines any quarterback has ever had. Parsing down a quarterback's entire performance to nothing but having strong protection up front is a pretty sili argument. By that logic, even the shittiest quarterback would be great if he had the a good line - we know this isn't the case.

Right now I say it is Brett Farve hands down, the ironman of the NFL, also he holds almost all of the QB records, execpt the couple that Brady holds.

Now say 5 years from now? Brady could be the best ever, he is sourrounded by great talent year in and year out. The Pats have the best ROLE players in the NFL, and the best coach. I say brady is on his way to being the best.

But for now I gotta go with the NFLs toughest man, which is Farve.

"legitimate rule"????? How legitimate is a rule that was made up for that game and that game only?! Never before or after have I seen a "tuck rule" play again, guaranteed. Be willing to bet anything on that one. Also, yes, I remember that game well, and I am a Raider Nation die-hard, and to this day I remember Brady fumbling that ball and him getting brought down/tied up and seeing him try and kick it away with his feet, which shows he even thought it was a fumble at the time. That has a lot to do with it I think, or else he woulda been in the same perdicament Romo is in, yeah , he woulda been good, but we wouldn't be having this very conversation if the "tuck rule" didn't happen. Every superbowl/legend QB great has "that" play, Montana with "The Catch" and here Brady's is a fuck up on behalf of the NFL hating the Raiders. I've had to hear about the Pats and their dynasty ever since, and anyone who says that it doesn't matter is either a.) in denial, or b.) a Patriots die-hard, or both haha

alwaystrying;292318 said:

"legitimate rule"????? How legitimate is a rule that was made up for that game and that game only?! Never before or after have I seen a "tuck rule" play again, guaranteed. Be willing to bet anything on that one. Also, yes, I remember that game well, and I am a Raider Nation die-hard, and to this day I remember Brady fumbling that ball and him getting brought down/tied up and seeing him try and kick it away with his feet, which shows he even thought it was a fumble at the time. That has a lot to do with it I think, or else he woulda been in the same perdicament Romo is in, yeah , he woulda been good, but we wouldn't be having this very conversation if the "tuck rule" didn't happen. Every superbowl/legend QB great has "that" play, Montana with "The Catch" and here Brady's is a fuck up on behalf of the NFL hating the Raiders. I've had to hear about the Pats and their dynasty ever since, and anyone who says that it doesn't matter is either a.) in denial, or b.) a Patriots die-hard, or both haha

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Look at the Rams vs. the Pats in the 2001 super bowl, fuck I hate the Pats but I do respect them, they have a good ass team.

alwaystrying;292318 said:

"legitimate rule"????? How legitimate is a rule that was made up for that game and that game only?! Never before or after have I seen a "tuck rule" play again, guaranteed. Be willing to bet anything on that one. Also, yes, I remember that game well, and I am a Raider Nation die-hard, and to this day I remember Brady fumbling that ball and him getting brought down/tied up and seeing him try and kick it away with his feet, which shows he even thought it was a fumble at the time. That has a lot to do with it I think, or else he woulda been in the same perdicament Romo is in, yeah , he woulda been good, but we wouldn't be having this very conversation if the "tuck rule" didn't happen. Every superbowl/legend QB great has "that" play, Montana with "The Catch" and here Brady's is a fuck up on behalf of the NFL hating the Raiders. I've had to hear about the Pats and their dynasty ever since, and anyone who says that it doesn't matter is either a.) in denial, or b.) a Patriots die-hard, or both haha

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Eh, The tuck rule is on the books, you can look it up. If you're suggesting that the refs specially invented it for that one game only and awarded it to Brady as part of some elaborate conspiracy, then you've uncovered a huge sports scandal that nobody else seems to know about. It was controversial call, but the Pats were a better team that year and the Raiders were lucky to be there.

Anyway that really has nothing to do with the rest of his acheivements in the game, you clearly just have seriously sour grapes over the tuck thing. I hate the Patriots, but chalking up Brady's whole career to one stupid play from years ago is just ridiculous.

He's about to steward his team to a perfect season and yet another championship - nobody has ever done that and it will be a very long time before it happens again.

Does Randy Moss bailing from the dead-in-the-water Raiders for one of the greatest teams ever - where he miraculously kicked ass all season - have anything to do with your anger? Can't say I blame the guy, I wouldn't want to finish my career in Oakland right now.

It was only on the books after that game before you start making accusations.....and yeah, this game is often decided by inches we all know that. The difference between a champ is often one yard, one fumble, period. It's not even worth arguing about, but I dare you to ever find another time where the "tuck rule" was ever imposed. Seriously, all I would ever do is go around fake pumping the ball and in case I fumble, ta-da, the tuck rule, so it can't be a fumble and I get the ball back?? Common, what sense is that? Please. Anyway, I am certain the NFL has it's darlings, and afterall it's a business, they want some teams in it more than others for the money. It's totally true. Since your not a Pats fan I take it you're somewhat of a Raider-hater (which I find a lot of people are), no biggie, yeah our team is in pretty bad shape no thanks to Al Davis, there's talk of getting rid of yet another coach, which like having a different coach for the last what, 6 or 7 years. Can't build a team around that mess. Oh and about Randy Moss, the guy is a total cunt-bitch, but u won't see any of that when you're winning/or on the best team in the league so I'm sure all is good now

I used to live in San Francisco, I like the Raiders just fine. They're mismanaged as all fuck, but you have to love Al Davis - there aren't a lot of great characters left in sports.

The tuck rule - and I think it's goofy as well, but it is legitmate, has been on the books since 1999, and it has been called in other games. Here's an article that mentions a Broncos/Redskins game where it came into play:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/14/AR2005101401828.html

So far as the NFL favoring the Pats, I actually happen to know that the Patriots only generate about $35 million more a year in revenue than the Raiders, which isn't a huge overall amount of money for the league. Their media markets are also pretty equal in size, so that's not the issue. The fact is, the Patriots have been very, very good the last few years, and the Raiders have been mediocre at best. Still doesn't mean the Pats get special treatment. I used to hear this sort of "The league hates us!" bullshit from diehard Raider fans all the time, but it's just a lot of hot air and part of the Raiders fan culture. Raiders fans love feeling like everybody is against them, it's part of the appeal.

Randy Moss is a good player, I don't give a shit about his personal antics or trades. He's shown that he belongs in the all-time top-tier of receivers and defenses actively sweat his coverage all week, which is the mark of a notable player. Like I said, how could you blame the guy for not wanting to be in Oakland? The Raiders suck right now and great players don't want to be there, that's just life.

No denying the Raiders suck, I agree, and Al Davis??? I'm not so sure he's so good for us anymore.....don't get me wrong I like him but he's too involved and too old school. All this in the midst of rumors of possibly losing another head coach (Kiffin), shakes head. Go Giants tho!! Or better yet, smash Brady.

Indeed -- I don't have much hope, but I'll be rooting for the giants like never before.

Things will probably be looking up for The Raiders once Jamarcus Russell grows into his role a little bit - he has unlimited potential physically, just not there mentally but he's shown every indication that NFL speed offenses won't be a problem for him. I have a feeling he'll do a hell of a lot more than Vince Young, which seems to be the comparison I keep hearing.

Naw, not even close. I mean he good, REAL good but not the greatest in history. Marino, Young, Favre all better.

I'm with ya Ithiel, but this guy Brady for one reason or another, he wins even when he shouldn't .....but I'm afraid we're going to have to hear about him for the rest of our lives with this possible (if it happens and they win the superbowl) perfect season business (sigh). Go Giants, at least I got a real reason to watch, who am I kidding I luv football, but I'm rooting for the Giants all the way for sure.

Had to revisit this thread now that its on my mind. Answer: no. He went from the best ever, to, well he's still great but I'm tellin ya it's weird what a loss can do to someone (like my point in above, see tuck rule), we'll see how they rebound tho. I think they were in shock that they actually lost. I'll give the '07 Pats this, they're the best team to ever not win it all, hands down.

Yeah, I'm just glad I gave up gambling, because I would have lost a bundle on this. To be honest though, if there were going to play again tomorrow, I'd probably still take odds on the Patriots. Football is fickle, and the Giants looked pretty good yesterday, but on any given day I'd say the Pats are still better overall. Eli just kept his shit together yesterday and they denied the Patriots any breakout plays, which is basically what people have been saying is the answer all year.

I'll still stand by my comments on Brady - they've still achieved a hell of a lot, and I'd say he has at least five or siz truly productive seasons to go before he hits real decline. The stats and legacy will stack up pretty seriously after he's done. Even Marino said that he considered Brady to have been playing on the highest level of any quarterback in ever this season - that's pretty high praise.

All that aside, I think I joined most of America yesterday in being overjoyed at the Pats losing. Nice to see Strahan get a ring - maybe he'll finally fucking retire now. I don't understand how these guys play so long, the pain has to be off the charts.

It was a great game!! I loved every minute of it. What I like about Brady is his deadly concentration. I admire this because it reminds me of what is needed to make yourself a bigger penis. You need deadly concentration!!

I agree, I felt 1% bad for Brady cuz I respect how hard he tries/works, very admirable (kinda like Peyton too) *BUT* wow, that was a great game. I didn't miss one second of it, what a great game, the whole thing was not what I expected yet still very captivating.

Brady is great when he has time to stand in the pocket and throw down field, just like every other NFL quarterback. We saw Sunday night what happens when he doesn't have that time.